lesser hippias-第4章

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for　this　reason　is　not　false；　as　has　been　admitted。



HIPPIAS：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　Once　morelet　us　examine　a　third　case；　that　of　the　astronomer；

in　whose　art；　again；　you；　Hippias；　profess　to　be　a　still　greater　proficient

than　in　the　precedingdo　you　not？



HIPPIAS：　　Yes；　I　am。



SOCRATES：　　And　does　not　the　same　hold　of　astronomy？



HIPPIAS：　　True；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　And　in　astronomy；　too；　if　any　man　be　able　to　speak　falsely　he

will　be　the　good　astronomer；　but　he　who　is　not　able　will　not　speak　falsely；

for　he　has　no　knowledge。



HIPPIAS：　　Clearly　not。



SOCRATES：　　Then　in　astronomy　also；　the　same　man　will　be　true　and　false？



HIPPIAS：　　It　would　seem　so。



SOCRATES：　　And　now；　Hippias；　consider　the　question　at　large　about　all　the

sciences；　and　see　whether　the　same　principle　does　not　always　hold。　　I　know

that　in　most　arts　you　are　the　wisest　of　men；　as　I　have　heard　you　boasting

in　the　agora　at　the　tables　of　the　money…changers；　when　you　were　setting

forth　the　great　and　enviable　stores　of　your　wisdom；　and　you　said　that　upon

one　occasion；　when　you　went　to　the　Olympic　games；　all　that　you　had　on　your

person　was　made　by　yourself。　　You　began　with　your　ring；　which　was　of　your

own　workmanship；　and　you　said　that　you　could　engrave　rings；　and　you　had

another　seal　which　was　also　of　your　own　workmanship；　and　a　strigil　and　an

oil　flask；　which　you　had　made　yourself；　you　said　also　that　you　had　made　the

shoes　which　you　had　on　your　feet；　and　the　cloak　and　the　short　tunic；　but

what　appeared　to　us　all　most　extraordinary　and　a　proof　of　singular　art；　was

the　girdle　of　your　tunic；　which；　you　said；　was　as　fine　as　the　most　costly

Persian　fabric；　and　of　your　own　weaving；　moreover；　you　told　us　that　you　had

brought　with　you　poems；　epic；　tragic；　and　dithyrambic；　as　well　as　prose

writings　of　the　most　various　kinds；　and　you　said　that　your　skill　was　also

pre…eminent　in　the　arts　which　I　was　just　now　mentioning；　and　in　the　true

principles　of　rhythm　and　harmony　and　of　orthography；　and　if　I　remember

rightly；　there　were　a　great　many　other　accomplishments　in　which　you

excelled。　　I　have　forgotten　to　mention　your　art　of　memory；　which　you　regard

as　your　special　glory；　and　I　dare　say　that　I　have　forgotten　many　other

things；　but；　as　I　was　saying；　only　look　to　your　own　artsand　there　are

plenty　of　themand　to　those　of　others；　and　tell　me；　having　regard　to　the

admissions　which　you　and　I　have　made；　whether　you　discover　any　department

of　art　or　any　description　of　wisdom　or　cunning；　whichever　name　you　use；　in

which　the　true　and　false　are　different　and　not　the　same：　　tell　me；　if　you

can；　of　any。　　But　you　cannot。



HIPPIAS：　　Not　without　consideration；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　Nor　will　consideration　help　you；　Hippias；　as　I　believe；　but　then

if　I　am　right；　remember　what　the　consequence　will　be。



HIPPIAS：　　I　do　not　know　what　you　mean；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　I　suppose　that　you　are　not　using　your　art　of　memory；　doubtless

because　you　think　that　such　an　accomplishment　is　not　needed　on　the　present

occasion。　　I　will　therefore　remind　you　of　what　you　were　saying：　　were　you

not　saying　that　Achilles　was　a　true　man；　and　Odysseus　false　and　wily？



HIPPIAS：　　I　was。



SOCRATES：　　And　now　do　you　perceive　that　the　same　person　has　turned　out　to

be　false　as　well　as　true？　　If　Odysseus　is　false　he　is　also　true；　and　if

Achilles　is　true　he　is　also　false；　and　so　the　two　men　are　not　opposed　to

one　another；　but　they　are　alike。



HIPPIAS：　　O　Socrates；　you　are　always　weaving　the　meshes　of　an　argument；

selecting　the　most　difficult　point；　and　fastening　upon　details　instead　of

grappling　with　the　matter　in　hand　as　a　whole。　　Come　now；　and　I　will

demonstrate　to　you；　if　you　will　allow　me；　by　many　satisfactory　proofs；　that

Homer　has　made　Achilles　a　better　man　than　Odysseus；　and　a　truthful　man　too；

and　that　he　has　made　the　other　crafty；　and　a　teller　of　many　untruths；　and

inferior　to　Achilles。　　And　then；　if　you　please；　you　shall　make　a　speech　on

the　other　side；　in　order　to　prove　that　Odysseus　is　the　better　man；　and　this

may　be　compared　to　mine；　and　then　the　company　will　know　which　of　us　is　the

better　speaker。



SOCRATES：　　O　Hippias；　I　do　not　doubt　that　you　are　wiser　than　I　am。　　But　I

have　a　way；　when　anybody　else　says　anything；　of　giving　close　attention　to

him；　especially　if　the　speaker　appears　to　me　to　be　a　wise　man。　　Having　a

desire　to　understand；　I　question　him；　and　I　examine　and　analyse　and　put

together　what　he　says；　in　order　that　I　may　understand；　but　if　the　speaker

appears　to　me　to　be　a　poor　hand；　I　do　not　interrogate　him；　or　trouble

myself　about　him；　and　you　may　know　by　this　who　they　are　whom　I　deem　to　be

wise　men；　for　you　will　see　that　when　I　am　talking　with　a　wise　man；　I　am

very　attentive　to　what　he　says；　and　I　ask　questions　of　him；　in　order　that　I

may　learn；　and　be　improved　by　him。　　And　I　could　not　help　remarking　while

you　were　speaking；　that　when　you　recited　the　verses　in　which　Achilles；　as

you　argued；　attacks　Odysseus　as　a　deceiver；　that　you　must　be　strangely

mistaken；　because　Odysseus；　the　man　of　wiles；　is　never　found　to　tell　a　lie；

but　Achilles　is　found　to　be　wily　on　your　own　showing。　　At　any　rate　he

speaks　falsely；　for　first　he　utters　these　words；　which　you　just　now

repeated；



'He　is　hateful　to　me　even　as　the　gates　of　death　who　thinks　one　thing　and

says　another：'



And　then　he　says；　a　little　while　afterwards；　he　will　not　be　persuaded　by

Odysseus　and　Agamemnon；　neither　will　he　remain　at　Troy；　but；　says　he；



'To…morrow；　when　I　have　offered　sacrifices　to　Zeus　and　all　the　Gods；　having

loaded　my　ships　well；　I　will　drag　them　down　into　the　deep；　and　then　you

shall　see；　if　you　have　a　mind；　and　if　such　things　are　a　care　to　you；　early

in　the　morning　my　ships　sailing　over　the　fishy　Hellespont；　and　my　men

eagerly　plying　the　oar；　and；　if　the　illustrious　shaker　of　the　earth　gives

me　a　good　voyage；　on　the　third　day　I　shall　reach　the　fertile　Phthia。'



And　before　that；　when　he　was　reviling　Agamemnon；　he　said；



'And　now　to　Phthia　I　will　go；　since　to　return　home　in　the　beaked　ships　is

far　better；　nor　am　I　inclined　to　stay　here　in　dishonour　and　amass　wealth

and　riches　for　you。'



But　although　on　that　occasion；　in　the　presence　of　the　whole　army；　he　spoke

after　this　fashion；　and　on　the　other　occasion　to　his　companions；　he　appears

never　to　have　made　any　preparation　or　attempt　to　draw　down　the　ships；　as　if

he　had　the　least　intention　of　sailing　home；　so　nobly　regardless　was　he　of

the　truth。　　Now　I；　Hippias；　originally　asked　you　the　question；　because　I

was　in　doubt　as　to　which　of　the　two　heroes　was　intended　by　the　poet　to　be

the　best；　and　because　I　thought　that　both　of　them　were　the　best；　and　that

it　would　be　difficult　to　decide　which　was　the　better　of　them；　not　only　in

respect　of　truth　and　falsehood；　but　of　virtue　generally；　for　even　in　this

matter　of　speaking　the　truth　they　are　much　upon　a　par。



HIPPIAS：　　There　you　are　wrong；　Socrates；　for　in　so　far　as　Achilles　speaks

falsely；　the　falsehood　is　obviously　unintentional。　　He　is　compelled　against

his　will　to　remain　and　rescue　the　army　in　their　misfortune。　　But　when

Odysseus　speaks　falsely　he　is　voluntarily　and　intentionally　false。



SOCRATES：　　You；　sweet　Hippias；　like　Odysseus；　are　a　deceiver　yourself。



HIPPIAS：　　Certainly　not；　Socrates；　what　makes　you　say　so？



SOCRATES：　　Because　you　say　that　Achilles　does　not　speak　falsely　from

design；　when　he　is　not　only　a　deceiver；　but　besides　being　a　braggart；　in

Homer's　description　of　him　is　so　cunning；　and　so　far　superior　to　Odysseus

in　lying　and　pretending；　that　he　dares　to　contradict　himself；　and　Odysseus

does　not　find　him　out；　at　any　rate　he　does　not　appear　to　say　anything　to

him　which　would　imply　that　he　perceived　his　falsehood。



HIPPIAS：　　What　do　you　mean；　Socrates？



SOCRATES：　　Did　you　not　observe　that　afterwards；　when　he　is　speaking　to

Odysseus；　he　says　that　he　will　sail　away　with　the　early　dawn；　but　to　Ajax

he　tells　quite　a　different　story？



HIPPIAS：　　Where　is　that？



SOCRATES：　　Where　he　says；



'I　will　not　think　about　bloody　war　until　the　son　of　warlike　Priam；

illustrious　Hector；　comes　to　the　tents　and　ships　of　the　Myrmidons；

slaughtering　the　Argives；　and　burning　the　ships　with　fire；　and　about　my

tent　and　dark　ship；　I　suspect　that　Hector；　although　eager　for　the　battle；

will　nevertheless　stay　his　hand。'



Now；　do　you　really　think；　Hippias；　that　the　son　of　Thetis；　who　had　been　the

pupil　of　the　sage　Cheiron；　had　such　a　bad　memory；　or　would　have　carried　the

art　of　lying　to　such　an　extent　（when　he　had　been　assailing　liars　in　the

most　violent　terms　only　the　instant　before）　as　to　say　to　Odysseus　that　he

would　sail　away；　and　to　Ajax　that　he　would　remain；　and　that　he　was　not

rather　practising　upon　the　simplicity　of　Odysseus；　whom　he　regarded　as　an

ancient；　and　thinking　that　he　would　get　the　better　of　him　by　his　own

cunning　and　falsehood？



HIPPIAS：　　No；　I　do　not　agree　with　you；　Socrates；　but　I　believe　that

Achilles　is　induced　to　say　one　thing　to　Ajax；　and　another　to　Odysseus　in

the　innocence　of　his　heart；　whereas　Odysseus；　whether　he　speaks　falsely　or

truly；　speaks　always　with　a　purpose。



SOCRATES：　　Then　Odysseus　would　appear　after　all　to　be　better　than　Achilles？



HIPPIAS：　　Certainly　not；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　Why；　were　not　the　voluntary　liars　only　just　now　shown　to　be

better　than　the　involuntary？



HIPPIAS：　　And　how；　Socrates；　can　those　who　intentionally　err；　and

voluntarily　and　designedly　commit　iniquities；　be　better　than　those　who　err

and　do　wrong　involuntarily？　　Surely　there　is　a　great　excuse　to　be　made　for

a　man　telling　a　falsehood；　or　doing　an　injury　or　any　sort　of　harm　to

another　in　ignorance。　　And　the　laws　are　obviously　far　more　severe　on　those

who　lie　or　do　evil；　voluntarily；　than　on　those　who　do　evil　involuntarily。



SOCRATES：　　You　see；　Hippias；　as　I　have　already　told　you；　how　pertinacious　I

am　in　asking　questions　of　wise　men。　　And　I　think　that　this　is　the　only　good

point　about　me；　for　I　am　full　of　defects；　and　always　getting　wrong　in　some

way　or　other。　　My　deficiency　is　proved　to　me　by　the　fact　that　when　I　meet

one　of　you　who　are　famous　for　wisdom；　and　to　whose　wisdom　all　the　Hellenes

are　witnesses；　I　am　found　out　to　know　nothing。　　For　speaking　generally；　I

hardly　ever　have　the　same　opinion　about　anything　which　you　have；　and　what

proof　of　ignorance　can　be　greater　than　to　differ　from　wise　men？　　But　I　have

one　singular　good　quality；　which　is　my　salvation；　I　am　not　ashamed　to

learn；　and　I　ask　and　enquire；　and　am　very　grateful　to　those　who　answer　me；

and　never　fail　to　give　them　my　grateful　thanks；　and　when　I　learn　a　thing　I

never　deny　my　teacher；　or　pretend　that　the　lesson　is　a　discovery　of　my　own；

but　I　praise　his　wisdom；　and　proclaim　what　I　have　learned　from　him。　　And

now　I　cannot　agree　in　what　you　are　saying；　but　I　strongly　disagree。　　Well；

I　know　that　this　is　my　own　fault；　and　is　a