alcibiades i-第4章
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ALCIBIADES： He will。
SOCRATES： Nor about divination？
ALCIBIADES： No。
SOCRATES： About that again the diviner will advise better than you will？
ALCIBIADES： True。
SOCRATES： Whether he be little or great； good or ill…looking； noble or
ignoblemakes no difference。
ALCIBIADES： Certainly not。
SOCRATES： A man is a good adviser about anything； not because he has
riches； but because he has knowledge？
ALCIBIADES： Assuredly。
SOCRATES： Whether their counsellor is rich or poor； is not a matter which
will make any difference to the Athenians when they are deliberating about
the health of the citizens； they only require that he should be a
physician。
ALCIBIADES： Of course。
SOCRATES： Then what will be the subject of deliberation about which you
will be justified in getting up and advising them？
ALCIBIADES： About their own concerns； Socrates。
SOCRATES： You mean about shipbuilding； for example； when the question is
what sort of ships they ought to build？
ALCIBIADES： No； I should not advise them about that。
SOCRATES： I suppose； because you do not understand shipbuilding：is that
the reason？
ALCIBIADES： It is。
SOCRATES： Then about what concerns of theirs will you advise them？
ALCIBIADES： About war； Socrates； or about peace； or about any other
concerns of the state。
SOCRATES： You mean； when they deliberate with whom they ought to make
peace； and with whom they ought to go to war； and in what manner？
ALCIBIADES： Yes。
SOCRATES： And they ought to go to war with those against whom it is better
to go to war？
ALCIBIADES： Yes。
SOCRATES： And when it is better？
ALCIBIADES： Certainly。
SOCRATES： And for as long a time as is better？
ALCIBIADES： Yes。
SOCRATES： But suppose the Athenians to deliberate with whom they ought to
close in wrestling； and whom they should grasp by the hand； would you； or
the master of gymnastics； be a better adviser of them？
ALCIBIADES： Clearly； the master of gymnastics。
SOCRATES： And can you tell me on what grounds the master of gymnastics
would decide； with whom they ought or ought not to close； and when and how？
To take an instance： Would he not say that they should wrestle with those
against whom it is best to wrestle？
ALCIBIADES： Yes。
SOCRATES： And as much as is best？
ALCIBIADES： Certainly。
SOCRATES： And at such times as are best？
ALCIBIADES： Yes。
SOCRATES： Again； you sometimes accompany the lyre with the song and dance？
ALCIBIADES： Yes。
SOCRATES： When it is well to do so？
ALCIBIADES： Yes。
SOCRATES： And as much as is well？
ALCIBIADES： Just so。
SOCRATES： And as you speak of an excellence or art of the best in
wrestling； and of an excellence in playing the lyre； I wish you would tell
me what this latter is；the excellence of wrestling I call gymnastic； and
I want to know what you call the other。
ALCIBIADES： I do not understand you。
SOCRATES： Then try to do as I do； for the answer which I gave is
universally right； and when I say right； I mean according to rule。
ALCIBIADES： Yes。
SOCRATES： And was not the art of which I spoke gymnastic？
ALCIBIADES： Certainly。
SOCRATES： And I called the excellence in wrestling gymnastic？
ALCIBIADES： You did。
SOCRATES： And I was right？
ALCIBIADES： I think that you were。
SOCRATES： Well； now；for you should learn to argue prettilylet me ask
you in return to tell me； first； what is that art of which playing and
singing； and stepping properly in the dance； are parts；what is the name
of the whole？ I think that by this time you must be able to tell。
ALCIBIADES： Indeed I cannot。
SOCRATES： Then let me put the matter in another way： what do you call the
Goddesses who are the patronesses of art？
ALCIBIADES： The Muses do you mean； Socrates？
SOCRATES： Yes； I do； and what is the name of the art which is called after
them？
ALCIBIADES： I suppose that you mean music。
SOCRATES： Yes； that is my meaning； and what is the excellence of the art
of music； as I told you truly that the excellence of wrestling was
gymnasticwhat is the excellence of musicto be what？
ALCIBIADES： To be musical； I suppose。
SOCRATES： Very good； and now please to tell me what is the excellence of
war and peace； as the more musical was the more excellent； or the more
gymnastical was the more excellent； tell me； what name do you give to the
more excellent in war and peace？
ALCIBIADES： But I really cannot tell you。
SOCRATES： But if you were offering advice to another and said to himThis
food is better than that； at this time and in this quantity； and he said to
youWhat do you mean； Alcibiades； by the word 'better'？ you would have no
difficulty in replying that you meant 'more wholesome；' although you do not
profess to be a physician： and when the subject is one of which you
profess to have knowledge； and about which you are ready to get up and
advise as if you knew； are you not ashamed； when you are asked； not to be
able to answer the question？ Is it not disgraceful？
ALCIBIADES： Very。
SOCRATES： Well； then； consider and try to explain what is the meaning of
'better；' in the matter of making peace and going to war with those against
whom you ought to go to war？ To what does the word refer？
ALCIBIADES： I am thinking； and I cannot tell。
SOCRATES： But you surely know what are the charges which we bring against
one another； when we arrive at the point of making war； and what name we
give them？
ALCIBIADES： Yes； certainly； we say that deceit or violence has been
employed； or that we have been defrauded。
SOCRATES： And how does this happen？ Will you tell me how？ For there may
be a difference in the manner。
ALCIBIADES： Do you mean by 'how；' Socrates； whether we suffered these
things justly or unjustly？
SOCRATES： Exactly。
ALCIBIADES： There can be no greater difference than between just and
unjust。
SOCRATES： And would you advise the Athenians to go to war with the just or
with the unjust？
ALCIBIADES： That is an awkward question； for certainly； even if a person
did intend to go to war with the just； he would not admit that they were
just。
SOCRATES： He would not go to war； because it would be unlawful？
ALCIBIADES： Neither lawful nor honourable。
SOCRATES： Then you； too； would address them on principles of justice？
ALCIBIADES： Certainly。
SOCRATES： What； then； is justice but that better； of which I spoke； in
going to war or not going to war with those against whom we ought or ought
not； and when we ought or ought not to go to war？
ALCIBIADES： Clearly。
SOCRATES： But how is this； friend Alcibiades？ Have you forgotten that you
do not know this； or have you been to the schoolmaster without my
knowledge； and has he taught you to discern the just from the unjust？ Who
is he？ I wish you would tell me； that I may go and learn of himyou shall
introduce me。
ALCIBIADES： You are mocking； Socrates。
SOCRATES： No； indeed； I most solemnly declare to you by Zeus； who is the
God of our common friendship； and whom I never will forswear； that I am
not； tell me； then； who this instructor is； if he exists。
ALCIBIADES： But； perhaps； he does not exist； may I not have acquired the
knowledge of just and unjust in some other way？
SOCRATES： Yes； if you have discovered them。
ALCIBIADES： But do you not think that I could discover them？
SOCRATES： I am sure that you might； if you enquired about them。
ALCIBIADES： And do you not think that I would enquire？
SOCRATES： Yes； if you thought that you did not know them。
ALCIBIADES： And was there not a time when I did so think？
SOCRATES： Very good； and can you tell me how long it is since you thought
that you did not know the nature of the just and the unjust？ What do you
say to a year ago？ Were you then in a state of conscious ignorance and
enquiry？ Or did you think that you knew？ And please to answer truly； that
our discussion may not be in vain。
ALCIBIADES： Well； I thought that I knew。
SOCRATES： And two years ago； and three years ago； and four years ago； you
knew all the same？
ALCIBIADES： I did。
SOCRATES： And more than four years ago you were a childwere you not？
ALCIBIADES： Yes。
SOCRATES： And then I am quite sure that you thought you knew。
ALCIBIADES： Why are you so sure？
SOCRATES： Because I often heard you when a child； in your teacher's house；
or elsewhere； playing at dice or some other game with the boys； not
hesitating at all about the nature of the just and unjust； but very
confidentcrying and shouting that one of the boys was a rogue and a
cheat； and had been cheating。 Is it not true？
ALCIBIADES： But what was I to do； Socrates； when anybody cheated me？
SOCRATES： And how can you say； 'What was I to do'？ if at the time you did
not know whether you were wronged or not？
ALCIBIADES： To be sure I knew； I was quite aware that I was being cheated。
SOCRATES： Then you suppose yourself even when a child to have known the
nature of just and unjust？
ALCIBIADES： Certainly； and I did know then。
SOCRATES： And when did you discover themnot； surely； at the time when
you thought that you knew them？
ALCIBIADES： Certainly not。
SOCRATES： And when did you think that you were ignorantif you consider；
you will find that there never was such a time？
ALCIBIADES： Really； Socrates； I cannot say。
SOCRATES： Then you did not learn them by discovering them？
ALCIBIADES： Clearly not。
SOCRATES： But just before you said that you did not know them by learning；
now； if you have neither discovered nor learned them； how and whence do you
come to know them？
ALCIBIADES： I suppose that I was mistaken in saying that I knew them
through my own discovery of them； whereas； in truth； I learned them in the
same way that other people learn。
SOCRATES： So you said before； and I must again ask； of whom？ Do tell me。
ALCIBIADES： Of the many。
SOCRATES： Do you take refuge in them？ I cannot say much for your
teachers。
ALCIBIADES： Why； are they not able to teach？
SOCRATES： They could not teach you how to play at draughts； which you
would acknowledge （would you not） to be a much smaller matter than justice？
ALCIBIADES： Yes。
SOCRATES： And can they teach the better who are unable to teach the worse？
ALCIBIADES： I think that they can； at any rate； they can teach many far
better things than to play at draughts。
SOCRATES： What things？
ALCIBIADES： Why； for example； I learned to speak Greek of them； and I
cannot say who was my teacher； or to whom I a
