laches-第4章

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the　art　of　virtue；　although　I　have　always　from　my　earliest　youth　desired　to



have　one。　　But　I　am　too　poor　to　give　money　to　the　Sophists；　who　are　the



only　professors　of　moral　improvement；　and　to　this　day　I　have　never　been



able　to　discover　the　art　myself；　though　I　should　not　be　surprised　if　Nicias



or　Laches　may　have　discovered　or　learned　it；　for　they　are　far　wealthier



than　I　am；　and　may　therefore　have　learnt　of　others。　　And　they　are　older



too；　so　that　they　have　had　more　time　to　make　the　discovery。　　And　I　really



believe　that　they　are　able　to　educate　a　man；　for　unless　they　had　been



confident　in　their　own　knowledge；　they　would　never　have　spoken　thus



decidedly　of　the　pursuits　which　are　advantageous　or　hurtful　to　a　young　man。　



I　repose　confidence　in　both　of　them；　but　I　am　surprised　to　find　that　they



differ　from　one　another。　　And　therefore；　Lysimachus；　as　Laches　suggested



that　you　should　detain　me；　and　not　let　me　go　until　I　answered；　I　in　turn



earnestly　beseech　and　advise　you　to　detain　Laches　and　Nicias；　and　question



them。　　I　would　have　you　say　to　them：　　Socrates　avers　that　he　has　no



knowledge　of　the　matterhe　is　unable　to　decide　which　of　you　speaks　truly；



neither　discoverer　nor　student　is　he　of　anything　of　the　kind。　　But　you；



Laches　and　Nicias；　should　each　of　you　tell　us　who　is　the　most　skilful



educator　whom　you　have　ever　known；　and　whether　you　invented　the　art



yourselves；　or　learned　of　another；　and　if　you　learned；　who　were　your



respective　teachers；　and　who　were　their　brothers　in　the　art；　and　then；　if



you　are　too　much　occupied　in　politics　to　teach　us　yourselves；　let　us　go　to



them；　and　present　them　with　gifts；　or　make　interest　with　them；　or　both；　in



the　hope　that　they　may　be　induced　to　take　charge　of　our　children　and　of



yours；　and　then　they　will　not　grow　up　inferior；　and　disgrace　their



ancestors。　　But　if　you　are　yourselves　original　discoverers　in　that　field；



give　us　some　proof　of　your　skill。　　Who　are　they　who；　having　been　inferior



persons；　have　become　under　your　care　good　and　noble？　　For　if　this　is　your



first　attempt　at　education；　there　is　a　danger　that　you　may　be　trying　the



experiment；　not　on　the　'vile　corpus'　of　a　Carian　slave；　but　on　your　own



sons；　or　the　sons　of　your　friend；　and；　as　the　proverb　says；　'break　the



large　vessel　in　learning　to　make　pots。'　　Tell　us　then；　what　qualities　you



claim　or　do　not　claim。　　Make　them　tell　you　that；　Lysimachus；　and　do　not　let



them　off。







LYSIMACHUS：　　I　very　much　approve　of　the　words　of　Socrates；　my　friends；　but



you；　Nicias　and　Laches；　must　determine　whether　you　will　be　questioned；　and



give　an　explanation　about　matters　of　this　sort。　　Assuredly；　I　and　Melesias



would　be　greatly　pleased　to　hear　you　answer　the　questions　which　Socrates



asks；　if　you　will：　　for　I　began　by　saying　that　we　took　you　into　our



counsels　because　we　thought　that　you　would　have　attended　to　the　subject；



especially　as　you　have　children　who；　like　our　own；　are　nearly　of　an　age　to



be　educated。　　Well；　then；　if　you　have　no　objection；　suppose　that　you　take



Socrates　into　partnership；　and　do　you　and　he　ask　and　answer　one　another's



questions：　　for；　as　he　has　well　said；　we　are　deliberating　about　the　most



important　of　our　concerns。　　I　hope　that　you　will　see　fit　to　comply　with　our



request。







NICIAS：　　I　see　very　clearly；　Lysimachus；　that　you　have　only　known　Socrates'



father；　and　have　no　acquaintance　with　Socrates　himself：　　at　least；　you　can



only　have　known　him　when　he　was　a　child；　and　may　have　met　him　among　his



fellow…wardsmen；　in　company　with　his　father；　at　a　sacrifice；　or　at　some



other　gathering。　　You　clearly　show　that　you　have　never　known　him　since　he



arrived　at　manhood。







LYSIMACHUS：　　Why　do　you　say　that；　Nicias？







NICIAS：　　Because　you　seem　not　to　be　aware　that　any　one　who　has　an



intellectual　affinity　to　Socrates　and　enters　into　conversation　with　him　is



liable　to　be　drawn　into　an　argument；　and　whatever　subject　he　may　start；　he



will　be　continually　carried　round　and　round　by　him；　until　at　last　he　finds



that　he　has　to　give　an　account　both　of　his　present　and　past　life；　and　when



he　is　once　entangled；　Socrates　will　not　let　him　go　until　he　has　completely



and　thoroughly　sifted　him。　　Now　I　am　used　to　his　ways；　and　I　know　that　he



will　certainly　do　as　I　say；　and　also　that　I　myself　shall　be　the　sufferer；



for　I　am　fond　of　his　conversation；　Lysimachus。　　And　I　think　that　there　is



no　harm　in　being　reminded　of　any　wrong　thing　which　we　are；　or　have　been；



doing：　　he　who　does　not　fly　from　reproof　will　be　sure　to　take　more　heed　of



his　after…life；　as　Solon　says；　he　will　wish　and　desire　to　be　learning　so



long　as　he　lives；　and　will　not　think　that　old　age　of　itself　brings　wisdom。　



To　me；　to　be　cross…examined　by　Socrates　is　neither　unusual　nor　unpleasant；



indeed；　I　knew　all　along　that　where　Socrates　was；　the　argument　would　soon



pass　from　our　sons　to　ourselves；　and　therefore；　I　say　that　for　my　part；　I



am　quite　willing　to　discourse　with　Socrates　in　his　own　manner；　but　you　had



better　ask　our　friend　Laches　what　his　feeling　may　be。







LACHES：　　I　have　but　one　feeling；　Nicias；　or　（shall　I　say？）　two　feelings；



about　discussions。　　Some　would　think　that　I　am　a　lover；　and　to　others　I　may



seem　to　be　a　hater　of　discourse；　for　when　I　hear　a　man　discoursing　of



virtue；　or　of　any　sort　of　wisdom；　who　is　a　true　man　and　worthy　of　his



theme；　I　am　delighted　beyond　measure：　　and　I　compare　the　man　and　his　words；



and　note　the　harmony　and　correspondence　of　them。　　And　such　an　one　I　deem　to



be　the　true　musician；　attuned　to　a　fairer　harmony　than　that　of　the　lyre；　or



any　pleasant　instrument　of　music；　for　truly　he　has　in　his　own　life　a



harmony　of　words　and　deeds　arranged；　not　in　the　Ionian；　or　in　the　Phrygian



mode；　nor　yet　in　the　Lydian；　but　in　the　true　Hellenic　mode；　which　is　the



Dorian；　and　no　other。　　Such　an　one　makes　me　merry　with　the　sound　of　his



voice；　and　when　I　hear　him　I　am　thought　to　be　a　lover　of　discourse；　so



eager　am　I　in　drinking　in　his　words。　　But　a　man　whose　actions　do　not　agree



with　his　words　is　an　annoyance　to　me；　and　the　better　he　speaks　the　more　I



hate　him；　and　then　I　seem　to　be　a　hater　of　discourse。　　As　to　Socrates；　I



have　no　knowledge　of　his　words；　but　of　old；　as　would　seem；　I　have　had



experience　of　his　deeds；　and　his　deeds　show　that　free　and　noble　sentiments



are　natural　to　him。　　And　if　his　words　accord；　then　I　am　of　one　mind　with



him；　and　shall　be　delighted　to　be　interrogated　by　a　man　such　as　he　is；　and



shall　not　be　annoyed　at　having　to　learn　of　him：　　for　I　too　agree　with



Solon；　'that　I　would　fain　grow　old；　learning　many　things。'　　But　I　must　be



allowed　to　add　'of　the　good　only。'　　Socrates　must　be　willing　to　allow　that



he　is　a　good　teacher；　or　I　shall　be　a　dull　and　uncongenial　pupil：　　but　that



the　teacher　is　younger；　or　not　as　yet　in　reputeanything　of　that　sort　is



of　no　account　with　me。　　And　therefore；　Socrates；　I　give　you　notice　that　you



may　teach　and　confute　me　as　much　as　ever　you　like；　and　also　learn　of　me



anything　which　I　know。　　So　high　is　the　opinion　which　I　have　entertained　of



you　ever　since　the　day　on　which　you　were　my　companion　in　danger；　and　gave　a



proof　of　your　valour　such　as　only　the　man　of　merit　can　give。　　Therefore；



say　whatever　you　like；　and　do　not　mind　about　the　difference　of　our　ages。







SOCRATES：　　I　cannot　say　that　either　of　you　show　any　reluctance　to　take



counsel　and　advise　with　me。







LYSIMACHUS：　　But　this　is　our　proper　business；　and　yours　as　well　as　ours；



for　I　reckon　you　as　one　of　us。　　Please　then　to　take　my　place；　and　find　out



from　Nicias　and　Laches　what　we　want　to　know；　for　the　sake　of　the　youths；



and　talk　and　consult　with　them：　　for　I　am　old；　and　my　memory　is　bad；　and　I



do　not　remember　the　questions　which　I　am　going　to　ask；　or　the　answers　to



them；　and　if　there　is　any　interruption　I　am　quite　lost。　　I　will　therefore



beg　of　you　to　carry　on　the　proposed　discussion　by　your　selves；　and　I　will



listen；　and　Melesias　and　I　will　act　upon　your　conclusions。







SOCRATES：　　Let　us；　Nicias　and　Laches；　comply　with　the　request　of　Lysimachus



and　Melesias。　　There　will　be　no　harm　in　asking　ourselves　the　question　which



was　first　proposed　to　us：　　'Who　have　been　our　own　instructors　in　this　sort



of　training；　and　whom　have　we　made　better？'　　But　the　other　mode　of　carrying



on　the　enquiry　will　bring　us　equally　to　the　same　point；　and　will　be　more



like　proceeding　from　first　principles。　　For　if　we　knew　that　the　addition　of



something　would　improve　some　other　thing；　and　were　able　to　make　the



addition；　then；　clearly；　we　must　know　how　that　about　which　we　are　advising



may　be　best　and　most　easily　attained。　　Perhaps　you　do　not　understand　what　I



mean。　　Then　let　me　make　my　meaning　plainer　in　this　way。　　Suppose　we　knew



that　the　addition　of　sight　makes　better　the　eyes　which　possess　this　gift；



and　also　were　able　to　impart　sight　to　the　eyes；　then；　clearly；　we　should



know　the　nature　of　sight；　and　should　be　able　to　advise　how　this　gift　of



sight　may　be　best　and　most　easily　attained；　but　if　we　knew　neither　what



sight　is；　nor　what　hearing　is；　we　should　not　be　very　good　medical　advisers



about　the　eyes　or　the　ears；　or　about　the　best　mode　of　giving　sight　and



hearing　to　them。







LACHES：　　That　is　true；　Socrates。







SOCRATES：　　And　are　not　our　two　friends；　Laches；　at　this　very　moment



inviting　us　to　consider　in　what　way　the　gift　of　virtue　may　be　imparted　to



their　sons　for　the　improvement　of　their　minds？







LACHES：　　Very　true。







SOCRATES：　　Then　must　we　not　first　know　the　nature　of　virtue？　　For　how　can



we　advise　any　one　about　the　best　mode　of　attaining　something　of　which　we



are　wholly　ignorant？







LACHES：　　I　do　not　think　that　we　can；　Socrates。







SOCRATES：　　Then；　Laches；　we　may　presume　that　we　know　the　nature　of　virtue？







LACHES：　　Yes。







SOCRATES：　　And　that　which　we　know　we　must　surely　be　able　to　tell？







LACHES：　　Certainly。







SOCRATES：　　I　would　not　have　us　begin；　my　friend；　with　enquiring　about　the



whole　of　virtue；　for　that　may　be　more　than　we　can　accomplish；　let　us　first



consider　whether　we　have　a　sufficient　knowledge　of　a　part；　the　enquiry　will



thus　probably　be　made　easier　to　us。







LACHES：　　Let　us　do　as　you　say；　Socrates。







SOCRATES：　　Then　which　of　the　parts　of　virtue　shall　we　select？　　Must　we　not



select　that　to　which　the　art　of　fighting　in　armour　is　supposed　to　conduce？　



And　is　not　that　generally　though