the memorabilia-第20章

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will　be　in　a　position　to　benefit　your　friends；　you　will　raise　up　your
father's　house；　you　will　exalt　your　fatherland；　you　will　become　a　name
thrice　famous　in　the　city　first；　and　next　in　Hellas；　and　lastly　even
among　barbarians　perhaps；　like　Themistocles；　but　be　it　here　or　be　it
there；　wherever　you　be；　you　will　be　the　observed　of　all　beholders。＇7＇

＇7＇　〃The　centre　of　attractionthe　cynosure　of　neighbouring　eyes。〃

The　heart　of　Glaucon　swelled　with　pride　as　he　drank　in　the　words；　and
gladly　he　stayed　to　listen。

Presently　Socrates　proceeded：　Then　this　is　clear；　Glaucon；　is　it　not？
that　you　must　needs　benefit　the　city；　since　you　desire　to　reap　her
honours？

Glauc。　Undoubtedly。

Then；　by　all　that　is　sacred　（Socrates　continued）；　do　not　keep　us　in
the　dark；　but　tell　us　in　what　way　do　you　propose　first　to　benefit　the
state？　what　is　your　starting…point？＇8＇　When　Glaucon　remained　with
sealed　lips；　as　if　he　were　now　for　the　first　time　debating　what　this
starting…point　should　be；　Socrates　continued：　I　presume；　if　you　wished
to　improve　a　friend's　estate；　you　would　endeavour　to　do　so　by　adding
to　its　wealth；　would　you　not？　So　here；　maybe；　you　will　try　to　add　to
the　wealth　of　the　state？

＇8＇　Or；　〃tell　us　what　your　starting…point　will　be　in　the　path　of
　　　　benefaction。〃

Most　decidedly　（he　answered）。

Soc。　And　we　may　take　it　the　state　will　grow　wealthier　in　proportion　as
her　revenues　increase？

Glauc。　That　seems　probable；　at　any　rate。

Soc。　Then　would　you　kindly　tell　us　from　what　sources　the　revenues　of
the　state　are　at　present　derived；　and　what　is　their　present　magnitude？
No　doubt　you　have　gone　carefully　into　the　question；　so　that　if　any　of
these　are　failing　you　may　make　up　the　deficit；　or　if　neglected　for　any
reason；　make　some　new　provision。＇9＇

＇9＇　Or；　〃or　if　others　have　dropped　out　or　been　negligently　overlooked；
　　　　you　may　replace　them。〃

Glauc。　Nay；　to　speak　the　truth；　these　are　matters　I　have　not
thoroughly　gone　into。

Never　mind　（he　said）　if　you　have　omitted　the　point；　but　you　might
oblige　us　by　running　through　the　items　or　heads　of　expenditure。
Obviously　you　propose　to　remove　all　those　which　are　superfluous？

Glauc。　Well；　no。　Upon　my　word　I　have　not　had　time　to　look　into　that
side　of　the　matter　either　as　yet。

Soc。　Then　we　will　postpone　for　the　present　the　problem　of　making　the
state　wealthier；　obviously　without　knowing　the　outgoings　and　the
incomings　it　would　be　impossible　to　deal　with　the　matter　seriously。

But；　Socrates　（Glaucon　remarked）；　it　is　possible　to　enrich　the　state
out　of　the　pockets　of　her　enemies！

Yes；　to　be　sure；　considerably　（answered　Socrates）；　in　the　event　of
getting　the　better　of　them；　but　in　the　event　of　being　worsted；　it　is
also　possible　to　lose　what　we　have　got。

A　true　observation　（he　replied）。

And　therefore　（proceeded　Socrates）；　before　he　makes　up　his　mind　with
what　enemy　to　go　to　war；　a　statesman　should　know　the　relative　powers
of　his　own　city　and　the　adversary's；　so　that；　in　case　the　superiority
be　on　his　own　side；　he　may　throw　the　weight　of　his　advice　into　the
scale　of　undertaking　war；　but　if　the　opposite　he　may　plead　in　favour
of　exercising　caution。

You　are　right　（he　answered）。

Soc。　Then　would　you　for　our　benefit　enumerate　the　land　and　naval
forces　first　of　Athens　and　then　of　our　opponents？

Glauc。　Pardon　me。　I　could　not　tell　you　them　off…hand　at　a　moment's
notice。

Or　（added　Socrates）；　if　you　have　got　the　figures　on　paper；　you　might
produce　them。　I　cannot　tell　how　anxious　I　am　to　hear　your　statement。

Glauc。　No；　I　assure　you；　I　have　not　got　them　even　on　paper　yet。

Soc。　Well　then；　we　will　defer　tending　advice　on　the　topic　of　peace　or
war；　in　a　maiden　speech　at　any　rate。＇10＇　I　can　understand　that；　owing
to　the　magnitude　of　the　questions；　in　these　early　days　of　your
ministry　you　have　not　yet　fully　examined　them。　But　come；　I　am　sure
that　you　have　studied　the　defences　of　the　country；　at　all　events；　and
you　know　exactly　how　many　forts　and　outposts　are　serviceable＇11＇　and
how　many　are　not；　you　can　tell　us　which　garrisons　are　strong　enough
and　which　defective；　and　you　are　prepared　to　throw　in　the　weight　of
your　advice　in　favour　of　increasing　the　serviceable　outposts　and
sweeping　away　those　that　are　superfluous？

＇10＇　See　〃Econ。〃　xi。　1。

＇11＇　Or；　〃advantageously　situated。〃　See　the　author's　own　tract　on
　　　　〃Revenues。〃

Glauc。　Yes；　sweep　them　all　away；　that's　my　advice；　for　any　good　that
is　likely　to　come　of　them！　Defences　indeed！　so　maintained　that　the
property　of　the　rural　districts　is　simply　pilfered。

But　suppose　you　sweep　away　the　outposts　（he　asked）；　may　not　something
worse；　think　you；　be　the　consequence？　will　not　sheer　plundering　be
free　to　any　ruffian　who　likes？　。　。　。　But　may　I　ask　is　this　judgment
the　result　of　personal　inspection？　have　you　gone　yourself　and　examined
the　defences？　or　how　do　you　know　that　they　are　all　maintained　as　you
say？

Glauc。　I　conjecture　that　it　is　so。

Soc。　Well　then；　until　we　have　got　beyond　the　region　of　conjecture
shall　we　defer　giving　advice　on　the　matter？　（It　will　be　time　enough
when　we　know　the　facts。）

Possibly　it　would　be　better　to　wait　till　then　（replied　Glaucon）。

Soc。　Then　there　are　the　mines；＇12＇　but；　of　course；　I　am　aware　that　you
have　not　visited　them　in　person；　so　as　to　be　able　to　say　why　they　are
less　productive　than　formerly。

＇12＇　Again　the　author's　tract　on　〃Revenues〃　is　a　comment　on　the
　　　　matter。

Well；　no；　I　have　never　been　there　myself　（he　answered）。

Soc。　No；　Heaven　help　us！　an　unhealthy　district　by　all　accounts；　so
that；　when　the　moment　for　advice　on　that　topic　arrives；　you　will　have
an　excuse　ready　to　hand。

I　see　you　are　making　fun　of　me　（Glaucon　answered）。

Soc。　Well；　but　here　is　a　point；　I　am　sure；　which　you　have　not
neglected。　No；　you　will　have　thoroughly　gone　into　it；　and　you　can　tell
us。　For　how　long　a　time　could　the　corn　supplies　from　the　country
districts　support　the　city？　how　much　is　requisite　for　a　single　year；
so　that　the　city　may　not　run　short　of　this　prime　necessary；　before　you
are　well　aware；　but　on　the　contrary　you　with　your　full　knowledge　will
be　in　a　position　to　give　advice　on　so　vital　a　question；　to　the　aid　or
may　be　the　salvation　of　your　country？

It　is　a　colossal　business　this　（Glaucon　answered）；　if　I　am　to　be
obliged　to　give　attention　to　all　these　details。

Soc。　On　the　other　hand；　a　man　could　not　even　manage　his　own　house　or
his　estate　well；　without；　in　the　first　place；　knowing　what　he
requires；　and；　in　the　second　place；　taking　pains；　item　by　item；　to
supply　his　wants。　But　since　this　city　consists　of　more　than　ten
thousand　houses；　and　it　is　not　easy　to　pay　minute　attention　to　so　many
all　at　once；　how　is　it　you　did　not　practise　yourself　by　trying　to
augment　the　resources　of　one　at　any　rate　of　theseI　mean　your　own
uncle's？　The　service　would　not　be　thrown　away。　Then　if　your　strength
suffices　in　the　single　case　you　might　take　in　hand　a　larger　number；
but　if　you　fail　to　relieve　one；　how　could　you　possibly　hope　to　succeed
with　many？　How　absurd　for　a　man；　if　he　cannot　carry　half　a
hundredweight；　to　attempt　to　carry　a　whole！＇13＇

＇13＇　Lit。　〃a　single　talent's　weight　。　。　。　to　carry　two。〃

Glauc。　Nay；　for　my　part；　I　am　willing　enough　to　assist　my　uncle's
house；　if　my　uncle　would　only　be　persuaded　to　listen　to　my　advice。

Soc。　Then；　when　you　cannot　persuade　your　uncle；　do　you　imagine　you
will　be　able　to　make　the　whole　Athenian　people；　uncle　and　all；　obey
you？　Be　careful；　Glaucon　（he　added）；　lest　in　your　thirst　for　glory　and
high　repute　you　come　to　the　opposite。　Do　you　not　see　how　dangerous　it
is　for　a　man　to　speak　or　act　beyond　the　range＇14＇　of　his　knowledge？　To
take　the　cases　known　to　you　of　people　whose　conversation　or　conduct
clearly　transcends　these　limits：　should　you　say　they　gain　more　praise
or　more　blame　on　that　account？　Are　they　admired　the　rather　or
despised？　Or；　again；　consider　those　who　do　know　what　they　say　and　what
they　do；　and　you　will　find；　I　venture　to　say；　that　in　every　sort　of
undertaking　those　who　enjoy　repute　and　admiration　belong　to　the　class
of　those　endowed　with　the　highest　knowledge；　whilst　conversely　the
people　of　sinister　reputation；　the　mean　and　the　contemptible；　emanate
from　some　depth　of　ignorance　and　dulness。　If　therefore　what　you　thirst
for　is　repute　and　admiration　as　a　statesman；　try　to　make　sure　of　one
accomplishment：　in　other　words；　the　knowledge　as　far　as　in　you　lies　of
what　you　wish　to　do。＇15＇　If；　indeed；　with　this　to　distinguish　you　from
the　rest　of　the　world　you　venture　to　concern　yourself　with　state
affairs；　it　would　not　surprise　me　but　that　you　might　reach　the　goal　of
your　ambition　easily。

＇14＇　Or；　〃to　talk　of　things　which　he　does　not　know；　or　to　meddle　with
　　　　them。〃

＇15＇　Or；　〃try　as　far　as　possible　to　achieve　one　thing；　and　that　is　to
　　　　know　the　business　which　you　propose　to　carry　out。〃


VII

Now　Charmides；＇1＇　the　son　of　Glaucon；　was；　as　Socrates　observed；　a　man
of　mark　and　influence：　a　much　more　powerful　person　in　fact　than　the
mass　of　those　devoted　to　politics　at　that　date；　but　at　the　same　time
he　was　a　man　who　shrank　from　approaching　the　people　or　busying　himself
with　the　concerns　of　the　state。　Accordingly　Socrates　addressed　him
thus：

＇1＇　See　last　chapter　for　his　relationship　to　Glaucon　（the　younger）　and
　　　　Plato；　for　a　conception　of　his　character；　Plato's　dialogue
　　　　〃Charmides〃；　〃Theag。〃　128　E；　〃Hell。〃　II。　iv。　19；　〃Symp。〃　iv。　31；
　　　　Grote；　〃Plato；〃　i。　480。

Tell　me；　Charmides；　supposing　some　one　competent　to　win　a　victory　in
the　arena　and　to　receive　a　crown；＇2＇　whereby　he　will　gain　honour
himself　and　make　the　land　of　his　fathers　more　glorious　in　Hellas；＇3＇
were　to　refuse　to　enter　the　listswhat　kind　of　person　should　you　set
him　down　to　be？

＇2＇　In　some　conquest　（e。g。　of　the　Olympic　games）　where　the　prize　is　a
　　　　mere　wreath。

＇3＇　Cf。　Pindar　passim。

Clearly　an　effeminate　and　cowardly　fellow　（he　answered）。

Soc。　And　what　if　another　man；　who　had　it　in　him；　by　devotion　to
affairs　of　state；　to　exalt　his　city　and　win　honour　himself　thereby；
were　to　shrink　and　hesitate　and　hang　backwould　he　too　not　reasonably
be　regarded　as　a　coward？

Possibly　（he　answered）；　but　why　do　you　address　these　questions　to　me？

Because　（replied　Socrates）　I　think　that　you；　who　have　this　power；　do
hesitate　to　devote　yourself　to　matters　which；　as　being　a　citizen；　if
for　no　other　reason；　you　are　bound　to　take　part　in。＇4＇

＇4＇　Or　add；　〃and　cannot　escape　from。〃

Charm。　And　wherein　have　you　detected　in　me　this　power；　that　you　pass
so　severe　a　sentence　upon　me？

Soc。　I　have　detected　it　plainly　enough　in　those　gatherings＇5＇　in　which
you　meet　the　politicians　of　the　day；　when；　as　I　observe；　each　time
they　consult　you　on　any　point　you　have　always　good　advice　to　offer；
and　when　they　make　a　blunder　you　lay　your　finger　on　the　weak　point
immediately。

＇5＇　See　above；　I。　v。　4；　here　possibly　of　political　club　conversation。

Charm。　To　discuss　and　reason　in　private　is　one　thing；　Socrates；　to
battle　in　the　throng　of　the　assembly　is　another。

Soc。　And　yet　a　man　who　can　count；　counts　every　bit　as　well　in　a　crowd
as　when　seated　alone　by　himself；　and　it　is　the　best　performer　on　the
harp　in　private　who　carries　off