alcibiades ii-第2章

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with　such　luck。



SOCRATES：　　Yet　you　would　not　accept　the　dominion　and　lordship　of　all　the

Hellenes　and　all　the　barbarians　in　exchange　for　your　life？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not：　　for　then　what　use　could　I　make　of　them？



SOCRATES：　　And　would　you　accept　them　if　you　were　likely　to　use　them　to　a

bad　and　mischievous　end？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　would　not。



SOCRATES：　　You　see　that　it　is　not　safe　for　a　man　either　rashly　to　accept

whatever　is　offered　him；　or　himself　to　request　a　thing；　if　he　is　likely　to

suffer　thereby　or　immediately　to　lose　his　life。　　And　yet　we　could　tell　of

many　who；　having　long　desired　and　diligently　laboured　to　obtain　a　tyranny；

thinking　that　thus　they　would　procure　an　advantage；　have　nevertheless

fallen　victims　to　designing　enemies。　　You　must　have　heard　of　what　happened

only　the　other　day；　how　Archelaus　of　Macedonia　was　slain　by　his　beloved

（compare　Aristotle；　Pol。）；　whose　love　for　the　tyranny　was　not　less　than

that　of　Archelaus　for　him。　　The　tyrannicide　expected　by　his　crime　to　become

tyrant　and　afterwards　to　have　a　happy　life；　but　when　he　had　held　the

tyranny　three　or　four　days；　he　was　in　his　turn　conspired　against　and　slain。

Or　look　at　certain　of　our　own　citizens；and　of　their　actions　we　have　been

not　hearers；　but　eyewitnesses；who　have　desired　to　obtain　military

command：　　of　those　who　have　gained　their　object；　some　are　even　to　this　day

exiles　from　the　city；　while　others　have　lost　their　lives。　　And　even　they

who　seem　to　have　fared　best；　have　not　only　gone　through　many　perils　and

terrors　during　their　office；　but　after　their　return　home　they　have　been

beset　by　informers　worse　than　they　once　were　by　their　foes；　insomuch　that

several　of　them　have　wished　that　they　had　remained　in　a　private　station

rather　than　have　had　the　glories　of　command。　　If；　indeed；　such　perils　and

terrors　were　of　profit　to　the　commonwealth；　there　would　be　reason　in

undergoing　them；　but　the　very　contrary　is　the　case。　　Again；　you　will　find

persons　who　have　prayed　for　offspring；　and　when　their　prayers　were　heard；

have　fallen　into　the　greatest　pains　and　sufferings。　　For　some　have　begotten

children　who　were　utterly　bad；　and　have　therefore　passed　all　their　days　in

misery；　while　the　parents　of　good　children　have　undergone　the　misfortune　of

losing　them；　and　have　been　so　little　happier　than　the　others　that　they

would　have　preferred　never　to　have　had　children　rather　than　to　have　had

them　and　lost　them。　　And　yet；　although　these　and　the　like　examples　are

manifest　and　known　of　all；　it　is　rare　to　find　any　one　who　has　refused　what

has　been　offered　him；　or；　if　he　were　likely　to　gain　aught　by　prayer；　has

refrained　from　making　his　petition。　　The　mass　of　mankind　would　not　decline

to　accept　a　tyranny；　or　the　command　of　an　army；　or　any　of　the　numerous

things　which　cause　more　harm　than　good：　　but　rather；　if　they　had　them　not；

would　have　prayed　to　obtain　them。　　And　often　in　a　short　space　of　time　they

change　their　tone；　and　wish　their　old　prayers　unsaid。　　Wherefore　also　I

suspect　that　men　are　entirely　wrong　when　they　blame　the　gods　as　the　authors

of　the　ills　which　befall　them　（compare　Republic）：　　'their　own　presumption；'

or　folly　（whichever　is　the　right　word）



'Has　brought　these　unmeasured　woes　upon　them。'　　（Homer。　Odyss。）



He　must　have　been　a　wise　poet；　Alcibiades；　who；　seeing　as　I　believe；　his

friends　foolishly　praying　for　and　doing　things　which　would　not　really

profit　them；　offered　up　a　common　prayer　in　behalf　of　them　all：



'King　Zeus；　grant　us　good　whether　prayed　for　or　unsought　by　us；

But　that　which　we　ask　amiss；　do　thou　avert。'　　（The　author　of　these　lines；

which　are　probably　of　Pythagorean　origin；　is　unknown。　　They　are　found　also

in　the　Anthology　（Anth。　Pal。）。）



In　my　opinion；　I　say；　the　poet　spoke　both　well　and　prudently；　but　if　you

have　anything　to　say　in　answer　to　him；　speak　out。



ALCIBIADES：　　It　is　difficult；　Socrates；　to　oppose　what　has　been　well　said。　

And　I　perceive　how　many　are　the　ills　of　which　ignorance　is　the　cause；

since；　as　would　appear；　through　ignorance　we　not　only　do；　but　what　is

worse；　pray　for　the　greatest　evils。　　No　man　would　imagine　that　he　would　do

so；　he　would　rather　suppose　that　he　was　quite　capable　of　praying　for　what

was　best：　　to　call　down　evils　seems　more　like　a　curse　than　a　prayer。



SOCRATES：　　But　perhaps；　my　good　friend；　some　one　who　is　wiser　than　either

you　or　I　will　say　that　we　have　no　right　to　blame　ignorance　thus　rashly；

unless　we　can　add　what　ignorance　we　mean　and　of　what；　and　also　to　whom　and

how　it　is　respectively　a　good　or　an　evil？



ALCIBIADES：　　How　do　you　mean？　　Can　ignorance　possibly　be　better　than

knowledge　for　any　person　in　any　conceivable　case？



SOCRATES：　　So　I　believe：you　do　not　think　so？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　And　yet　surely　I　may　not　suppose　that　you　would　ever　wish　to　act

towards　your　mother　as　they　say　that　Orestes　and　Alcmeon　and　others　have

done　towards　their　parent。



ALCIBIADES：　　Good　words；　Socrates；　prithee。



SOCRATES：　　You　ought　not　to　bid　him　use　auspicious　words；　who　says　that　you

would　not　be　willing　to　commit　so　horrible　a　deed；　but　rather　him　who

affirms　the　contrary；　if　the　act　appear　to　you　unfit　even　to　be　mentioned。

Or　do　you　think　that　Orestes；　had　he　been　in　his　senses　and　knew　what　was

best　for　him　to　do；　would　ever　have　dared　to　venture　on　such　a　crime？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　Nor　would　any　one　else；　I　fancy？



ALCIBIADES：　　No。



SOCRATES：　　That　ignorance　is　bad　then；　it　would　appear；　which　is　of　the

best　and　does　not　know　what　is　best？



ALCIBIADES：　　So　I　think；　at　least。



SOCRATES：　　And　both　to　the　person　who　is　ignorant　and　everybody　else？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　Let　us　take　another　case。　　Suppose　that　you　were　suddenly　to　get

into　your　head　that　it　would　be　a　good　thing　to　kill　Pericles；　your　kinsman

and　guardian；　and　were　to　seize　a　sword　and；　going　to　the　doors　of　his

house；　were　to　enquire　if　he　were　at　home；　meaning　to　slay　only　him　and　no

one　else：the　servants　reply；　'Yes'：　　（Mind；　I　do　not　mean　that　you　would

really　do　such　a　thing；　but　there　is　nothing；　you　think；　to　prevent　a　man

who　is　ignorant　of　the　best；　having　occasionally　the　whim　that　what　is

worst　is　best？



ALCIBIADES：　　No。）



SOCRATES：If；　then；　you　went　indoors；　and　seeing　him；　did　not　know　him；

but　thought　that　he　was　some　one　else；　would　you　venture　to　slay　him？



ALCIBIADES：　　Most　decidedly　not　（it　seems　to　me）。　　（These　words　are　omitted

in　several　MSS。）



SOCRATES：　　For　you　designed　to　kill；　not　the　first　who　offered；　but

Pericles　himself？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　if　you　made　many　attempts；　and　each　time　failed　to　recognize

Pericles；　you　would　never　attack　him？



ALCIBIADES：　　Never。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　but　if　Orestes　in　like　manner　had　not　known　his　mother；　do

you　think　that　he　would　ever　have　laid　hands　upon　her？



ALCIBIADES：　　No。



SOCRATES：　　He　did　not　intend　to　slay　the　first　woman　he　came　across；　nor

any　one　else's　mother；　but　only　his　own？



ALCIBIADES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　Ignorance；　then；　is　better　for　those　who　are　in　such　a　frame　of

mind；　and　have　such　ideas？



ALCIBIADES：　　Obviously。



SOCRATES：　　You　acknowledge　that　for　some　persons　in　certain　cases　the

ignorance　of　some　things　is　a　good　and　not　an　evil；　as　you　formerly

supposed？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　do。



SOCRATES：　　And　there　is　still　another　case　which　will　also　perhaps　appear

strange　to　you；　if　you　will　consider　it？　　（The　reading　is　here　uncertain。）



ALCIBIADES：　　What　is　that；　Socrates？



SOCRATES：　　It　may　be；　in　short；　that　the　possession　of　all　the　sciences；　if

unaccompanied　by　the　knowledge　of　the　best；　will　more　often　than　not　injure

the　possessor。　　Consider　the　matter　thus：Must　we　not；　when　we　intend

either　to　do　or　say　anything；　suppose　that　we　know　or　ought　to　know　that

which　we　propose　so　confidently　to　do　or　say？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes；　in　my　opinion。



SOCRATES：　　We　may　take　the　orators　for　an　example；　who　from　time　to　time

advise　us　about　war　and　peace；　or　the　building　of　walls　and　the

construction　of　harbours；　whether　they　understand　the　business　in　hand；　or

only　think　that　they　do。　　Whatever　the　city；　in　a　word；　does　to　another

city；　or　in　the　management　of　her　own　affairs；　all　happens　by　the　counsel

of　the　orators。



ALCIBIADES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　But　now　see　what　follows；　if　I　can　（make　it　clear　to　you）。　

（Some　words　appear　to　have　dropped　out　here。）　　You　would　distinguish　the

wise　from　the　foolish？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　The　many　are　foolish；　the　few　wise？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　you　use　both　the　terms；　'wise'　and　'foolish；'　in　reference

to　something？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　do。



SOCRATES：　　Would　you　call　a　person　wise　who　can　give　advice；　but　does　not

know　whether　or　when　it　is　better　to　carry　out　the　advice？



ALCIBIADES：　　Decidedly　not。



SOCRATES：　　Nor　again；　I　suppose；　a　person　who　knows　the　art　of　war；　but

does　not　know　whether　it　is　better　to　go　to　war　or　for　how　long？



ALCIBIADES：　　No。



SOCRATES：　　Nor；　once　more；　a　person　who　knows　how　to　kill　another　or　to

take　away　his　property　or　to　drive　him　from　his　native　land；　but　not　when

it　is　better　to　do　so　or　for　whom　it　is　better？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　But　he　who　understands　anything　of　the　kind　and　has　at　the　same

time　the　knowledge　of　the　best　course　of　action：and　the　best　and　the

useful　are　surely　the　same？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：Such　an　one；　I　say；　we　should　call　wise　and　a　useful　adviser

both　of　himself　and　of　the　city。　　What　do　you　think？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　agree。



SOCRATES：　　And　if　any　one　knows　how　to　ride　or　to　shoot　with　the　bow　or　to

box　or　to　wrestle；　or　to　engage　in　any　other　sort　of　contest　or　to　do

anything　whatever　which　is　in　the　nature　of　an　art；what　do　you　call　him

who　knows　what　is　best　according　to　that　art？　　Do　you　not　speak　of　one　who

knows　what　is　best　in　riding　as　a　good　rider？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　in　a　similar　way　you　speak　of　a　good　boxer　or　a　good　flute…

player　or　a　good　performer　in　any　other　art？



ALCIBIADES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　But　is　it　necessary　that　the　man　who　is　clever　in　any　of　these

arts　should　be　wise　also　in　general？　　Or　is　there　a　difference　between　the

clever　artist　and　the　wise　man？



ALCIBIADES：　　All　the　difference　in　the　world。



SOCRATES：　　And　what　sort　of　a　state　do　you　think　that　would　be　which　was

composed　of　good　archers　and　flute…players　and　athletes　and　masters　in

other　arts；　and　besides　them　of　those　others　about　whom　we　spoke；　who　knew

how　to　go　to　war　and　how　to　kill；　as　well　as　of　orators　puffed　up　with

political　pride；　but　in　which　not　one　of　them　all　had　this　knowledge　of　the

best；　and　there　was　no　one　who　could　tell　when　it　was　better　to　apply　any