euthydemus-第6章

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wisdom；　and　you　individually　will　try　to　love　her？

Certainly；　Socrates；　he　said；　I　will　do　my　best。

I　was　pleased　at　hearing　this；　and　I　turned　to　Dionysodorus　and　Euthydemus　and　said：　　That　is　an　example；　clumsy　and　tedious　I　admit；　of　the　sort　of　exhortations　which　I　would　have　you　give；　and　I　hope　that　one　of　you　will　set　forth　what　I　have　been　saying　in　a　more　artistic　style：　　or　at　least　take　up　the　enquiry　where　I　left　off；　and　proceed　to　show　the　youth　whether　he　should　have　all　knowledge；　or　whether　there　is　one　sort　of　knowledge　only　which　will　make　him　good　and　happy；　and　what　that　is。　　For；　as　I　was　saying　at　first；　the　improvement　of　this　young　man　in　virtue　and　wisdom　is　a　matter　which　we　have　very　much　at　heart。

Thus　I　spoke；　Crito；　and　was　all　attention　to　what　was　coming。　　I　wanted　to　see　how　they　would　approach　the　question；　and　where　they　would　start　in　their　exhortation　to　the　young　man　that　he　should　practise　wisdom　and　virtue。　　Dionysodorus；　who　was　the　elder；　spoke　first。　　Everybody's　eyes　were　directed　towards　him；　perceiving　that　something　wonderful　might　shortly　be　expected。　　And　certainly　they　were　not　far　wrong；　for　the　man；　Crito；　began　a　remarkable　discourse　well　worth　hearing；　and　wonderfully　persuasive　regarded　as　an　exhortation　to　virtue。

Tell　me；　he　said；　Socrates　and　the　rest　of　you　who　say　that　you　want　this　young　man　to　become　wise；　are　you　in　jest　or　in　real　earnest？

I　was　led　by　this　to　imagine　that　they　fancied　us　to　have　been　jesting　when　we　asked　them　to　converse　with　the　youth；　and　that　this　made　them　jest　and　play；　and　being　under　this　impression；　I　was　the　more　decided　in　saying　that　we　were　in　profound　earnest。　　Dionysodorus　said：

Reflect；　Socrates；　you　may　have　to　deny　your　words。

I　have　reflected；　I　said；　and　I　shall　never　deny　my　words。

Well；　said　he；　and　so　you　say　that　you　wish　Cleinias　to　become　wise？

Undoubtedly。

And　he　is　not　wise　as　yet？

At　least　his　modesty　will　not　allow　him　to　say　that　he　is。

You　wish　him；　he　said；　to　become　wise　and　not；　to　be　ignorant？

That　we　do。

You　wish　him　to　be　what　he　is　not；　and　no　longer　to　be　what　he　is？

I　was　thrown　into　consternation　at　this。

Taking　advantage　of　my　consternation　he　added：　　You　wish　him　no　longer　to　be　what　he　is；　which　can　only　mean　that　you　wish　him　to　perish。　　Pretty　lovers　and　friends　they　must　be　who　want　their　favourite　not　to　be；　or　to　perish！

When　Ctesippus　heard　this　he　got　very　angry　（as　a　lover　well　might）　and　said：　　Stranger　of　Thuriiif　politeness　would　allow　me　I　should　say；　A　plague　upon　you！　　What　can　make　you　tell　such　a　lie　about　me　and　the　others；　which　I　hardly　like　to　repeat；　as　that　I　wish　Cleinias　to　perish？

Euthydemus　replied：　　And　do　you　think；　Ctesippus；　that　it　is　possible　to　tell　a　lie？

Yes；　said　Ctesippus；　I　should　be　mad　to　say　anything　else。

And　in　telling　a　lie；　do　you　tell　the　thing　of　which　you　speak　or　not？

You　tell　the　thing　of　which　you　speak。

And　he　who　tells；　tells　that　thing　which　he　tells；　and　no　other？

Yes；　said　Ctesippus。

And　that　is　a　distinct　thing　apart　from　other　things？

Certainly。

And　he　who　says　that　thing　says　that　which　is？

Yes。

And　he　who　says　that　which　is；　says　the　truth。　　And　therefore　Dionysodorus；　if　he　says　that　which　is；　says　the　truth　of　you　and　no　lie。

Yes；　Euthydemus；　said　Ctesippus；　but　in　saying　this；　he　says　what　is　not。

Euthydemus　answered：　　And　that　which　is　not　is　not？

True。

And　that　which　is　not　is　nowhere？

Nowhere。

And　can　any　one　do　anything　about　that　which　has　no　existence；　or　do　to　Cleinias　that　which　is　not　and　is　nowhere？

I　think　not；　said　Ctesippus。

Well；　but　do　rhetoricians；　when　they　speak　in　the　assembly；　do　nothing？

Nay；　he　said；　they　do　something。

And　doing　is　making？

Yes。

And　speaking　is　doing　and　making？

He　agreed。

Then　no　one　says　that　which　is　not；　for　in　saying　what　is　not　he　would　be　doing　something；　and　you　have　already　acknowledged　that　no　one　can　do　what　is　not。　　And　therefore；　upon　your　own　showing；　no　one　says　what　is　false；　but　if　Dionysodorus　says　anything；　he　says　what　is　true　and　what　is。

Yes；　Euthydemus；　said　Ctesippus；　but　he　speaks　of　things　in　a　certain　way　and　manner；　and　not　as　they　really　are。

Why；　Ctesippus；　said　Dionysodorus；　do　you　mean　to　say　that　any　one　speaks　of　things　as　they　are？

Yes；　he　saidall　gentlemen　and　truth…speaking　persons。

And　are　not　good　things　good；　and　evil　things　evil？

He　assented。

And　you　say　that　gentlemen　speak　of　things　as　they　are？

Yes。

Then　the　good　speak　evil　of　evil　things；　if　they　speak　of　them　as　they　are？

Yes；　indeed；　he　said；　and　they　speak　evil　of　evil　men。　　And　if　I　may　give　you　a　piece　of　advice；　you　had　better　take　care　that　they　do　not　speak　evil　of　you；　since　I　can　tell　you　that　the　good　speak　evil　of　the　evil。

And　do　they　speak　great　things　of　the　great；　rejoined　Euthydemus；　and　warm　things　of　the　warm？

To　be　sure　they　do；　said　Ctesippus；　and　they　speak　coldly　of　the　insipid　and　cold　dialectician。

You　are　abusive；　Ctesippus；　said　Dionysodorus；　you　are　abusive！

Indeed；　I　am　not；　Dionysodorus；　he　replied；　for　I　love　you　and　am　giving　you　friendly　advice；　and；　if　I　could；　would　persuade　you　not　like　a　boor　to　say　in　my　presence　that　I　desire　my　beloved；　whom　I　value　above　all　men；　to　perish。

I　saw　that　they　were　getting　exasperated　with　one　another；　so　I　made　a　joke　with　him　and　said：　　O　Ctesippus；　I　think　that　we　must　allow　the　strangers　to　use　language　in　their　own　way；　and　not　quarrel　with　them　about　words；　but　be　thankful　for　what　they　give　us。　　If　they　know　how　to　destroy　men　in　such　a　way　as　to　make　good　and　sensible　men　out　of　bad　and　foolish　ones　whether　this　is　a　discovery　of　their　own；　or　whether　they　have　learned　from　some　one　else　this　new　sort　of　death　and　destruction　which　enables　them　to　get　rid　of　a　bad　man　and　turn　him　into　a　good　oneif　they　know　this　（and　they　do　know　thisat　any　rate　they　said　just　now　that　this　was　the　secret　of　their　newly…discovered　art）let　them；　in　their　phraseology；　destroy　the　youth　and　make　him　wise；　and　all　of　us　with　him。　　But　if　you　young　men　do　not　like　to　trust　yourselves　with　them；　then　fiat　experimentum　in　corpore　senis；　I　will　be　the　Carian　on　whom　they　shall　operate。　　And　here　I　offer　my　old　person　to　Dionysodorus；　he　may　put　me　into　the　pot；　like　Medea　the　Colchian；　kill　me；　boil　me；　if　he　will　only　make　me　good。

Ctesippus　said：　　And　I；　Socrates；　am　ready　to　commit　myself　to　the　strangers；　they　may　skin　me　alive；　if　they　please　（and　I　am　pretty　well　skinned　by　them　already）；　if　only　my　skin　is　made　at　last；　not　like　that　of　Marsyas；　into　a　leathern　bottle；　but　into　a　piece　of　virtue。　　And　here　is　Dionysodorus　fancying　that　I　am　angry　with　him；　when　really　I　am　not　angry　at　all；　I　do　but　contradict　him　when　I　think　that　he　is　speaking　improperly　to　me：　　and　you　must　not　confound　abuse　and　contradiction；　O　illustrious　Dionysodorus；　for　they　are　quite　different　things。

Contradiction！　said　Dionysodorus；　why；　there　never　was　such　a　thing。

Certainly　there　is；　he　replied；　there　can　be　no　question　of　that。　　Do　you；　Dionysodorus；　maintain　that　there　is　not？

You　will　never　prove　to　me；　he　said；　that　you　have　heard　any　one　contradicting　any　one　else。

Indeed；　said　Ctesippus；　then　now　you　may　hear　me　contradicting　Dionysodorus。

Are　you　prepared　to　make　that　good？

Certainly；　he　said。

Well；　have　not　all　things　words　expressive　of　them？

Yes。

Of　their　existence　or　of　their　non…existence？

Of　their　existence。

Yes；　Ctesippus；　and　we　just　now　proved；　as　you　may　remember；　that　no　man　could　affirm　a　negative；　for　no　one　could　affirm　that　which　is　not。

And　what　does　that　signify？　said　Ctesippus；　you　and　I　may　contradict　all　the　same　for　that。

But　can　we　contradict　one　another；　said　Dionysodorus；　when　both　of　us　are　describing　the　same　thing？　　Then　we　must　surely　be　speaking　the　same　thing？

He　assented。

Or　when　neither　of　us　is　speaking　of　the　same　thing？　　For　then　neither　of　us　says　a　word　about　the　thing　at　all？

He　granted　that　proposition　also。

But　when　I　describe　something　and　you　describe　another　thing；　or　I　say　something　and　you　say　nothingis　there　any　contradiction？　　How　can　he　who　speaks　contradict　him　who　speaks　not？

Here　Ctesippus　was　silent；　and　I　in　my　astonishment　said：　　What　do　you　mean；　Dionysodorus？　　I　have　often　heard；　and　have　been　amazed　to　hear；　this　thesis　of　yours；　which　is　maintained　and　employed　by　the　disciples　of　Protagoras；　and　others　before　them；　and　which　to　me　appears　to　be　quite　wonderful；　and　suicidal　as　well　as　destructive；　and　I　think　that　I　am　most　likely　to　hear　the　truth　about　it　from　you。　　The　dictum　is　that　there　is　no　such　thing　as　falsehood；　a　man　must　either　say　what　is　true　or　say　nothing。　　Is　not　that　your　position？

He　assented。

But　if　he　cannot　speak　falsely；　may　he　not　think　falsely？

No；　he　cannot；　he　said。

Then　there　is　no　such　thing　as　false　opinion？

No；　he　said。

Then　there　is　no　such　thing　as　ignorance；　or　men　who　are　ignorant；　for　is　not　ignorance；　if　there　be　such　a　thing；　a　mistake　of　fact？

Certainly；　he　said。

And　that　is　impossible？

Impossible；　he　replied。

Are　you　saying　this　as　a　paradox；　Dionysodorus；　or　do　you　seriously　maintain　no　man　to　be　ignorant？

Refute　me；　he　said。

But　how　can　I　refute　you；　if；　as　you　say；　to　tell　a　falsehood　is　impossible？

Very　true；　said　Euthydemus。

Neither　did　I　tell　you　just　now　to　refute　me；　said　Dionysodorus；　for　how　can　I　tell　you　to　do　that　which　is　not？

O　Euthydemus；　I　said；　I　have　but　a　dull　conception　of　these　subtleties　and　excellent　devices　of　wisdom；　I　am　afraid　that　I　hardly　understand　them；　and　you　must　forgive　me　therefore　if　I　ask　a　very　stupid　question：　　if　there　be　no　falsehood　or　false　opinion　or　ignorance；　there　can　be　no　such　thing　as　erroneous　action；　for　a　man　cannot　fail　of　acting　as　he　is　actingthat　is　what　you　mean？

Yes；　he　replied。

And　now；　I　said；　I　will　ask　my　stupid　question：　　If　there　is　no　such　thing　as　error　in　deed；　word；　or　thought；　then　what；　in　the　name　of　goodness；　do　you　come　hither　to　teach？　　And　were　you　not　just　now　saying　that　you　could　teach　virtue　best　of　all　men；　to　any　one　who　was　willing　to　learn？

And　are　you　such　an　old　fool；　Socrates；　rejoined　Dionysodorus；　that　you　bring　up　now　what　I　said　at　firstand　if　I　had　said　anything　last　year；　I　suppose　that　you　would　bring　that　up　toobut　are　non…plussed　at　the　words　which　I　have　just　uttered？

Why；　I　said；　they　are　not　easy　to　answer；　for　they　are　the　words　of　wise　men：　　and　indeed　I　know　not　what　to　make　of　this　word　'nonplussed；'　which　you　used　last：　　what　do　you　mean　by　it；　Dionysodorus？　　You　must　mean　that　I　cannot　refute　your　argument。　　Tell　me　if　the　words　have　any　other　sense。

No；　he　replied；　they　mean　what　you　say。　　And　now　answer。

What；　before　you；　Dionysodorus？　I　said。

Answer；　said　he。

And　is　that　fair？

Yes；　quite　fair；　he　said。

Upon　what　principle？　I　said。　　I　can　only　suppose　that　you　are　a　very　wise　man　who　comes　to　us　in　the　character　of　a　great　logician；　and　who　knows　when　to　answer　and　when　not　to　answerand　now　you　will　not　open　your　mouth　at　all；　because　you　know　that　you　ought　not。

You　prate；　h