euthydemus-第7章

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werand　now　you　will　not　open　your　mouth　at　all；　because　you　know　that　you　ought　not。

You　prate；　he　said；　instead　of　answering。　　But　if；　my　good　sir；　you　admit　that　I　am　wise；　answer　as　I　tell　you。

I　suppose　that　I　must　obey；　for　you　are　master。　　Put　the　question。

Are　the　things　which　have　sense　alive　or　lifeless？

They　are　alive。

And　do　you　know　of　any　word　which　is　alive？

I　cannot　say　that　I　do。

Then　why　did　you　ask　me　what　sense　my　words　had？

Why；　because　I　was　stupid　and　made　a　mistake。　　And　yet；　perhaps；　I　was　right　after　all　in　saying　that　words　have　a　sense；what　do　you　say；　wise　man？　　If　I　was　not　in　error；　even　you　will　not　refute　me；　and　all　your　wisdom　will　be　non…plussed；　but　if　I　did　fall　into　error；　then　again　you　are　wrong　in　saying　that　there　is　no　error；and　this　remark　was　made　by　you　not　quite　a　year　ago。　　I　am　inclined　to　think；　however；　Dionysodorus　and　Euthydemus；　that　this　argument　lies　where　it　was　and　is　not　very　likely　to　advance：　　even　your　skill　in　the　subtleties　of　logic；　which　is　really　amazing；　has　not　found　out　the　way　of　throwing　another　and　not　falling　yourself；　now　any　more　than　of　old。

Ctesippus　said：　　Men　of　Chios；　Thurii；　or　however　and　whatever　you　call　yourselves；　I　wonder　at　you；　for　you　seem　to　have　no　objection　to　talking　nonsense。

Fearing　that　there　would　be　high　words；　I　again　endeavoured　to　soothe　Ctesippus；　and　said　to　him：　　To　you；　Ctesippus；　I　must　repeat　what　I　said　before　to　Cleiniasthat　you　do　not　understand　the　ways　of　these　philosophers　from　abroad。　　They　are　not　serious；　but；　like　the　Egyptian　wizard；　Proteus；　they　take　different　forms　and　deceive　us　by　their　enchantments：　　and　let　us；　like　Menelaus；　refuse　to　let　them　go　until　they　show　themselves　to　us　in　earnest。　　When　they　begin　to　be　in　earnest　their　full　beauty　will　appear：　　let　us　then　beg　and　entreat　and　beseech　them　to　shine　forth。　　And　I　think　that　I　had　better　once　more　exhibit　the　form　in　which　I　pray　to　behold　them；　it　might　be　a　guide　to　them。　　I　will　go　on　therefore　where　I　left　off；　as　well　as　I　can；　in　the　hope　that　I　may　touch　their　hearts　and　move　them　to　pity；　and　that　when　they　see　me　deeply　serious　and　interested；　they　also　may　be　serious。　　You；　Cleinias；　I　said；　shall　remind　me　at　what　point　we　left　off。　　Did　we　not　agree　that　philosophy　should　be　studied？　and　was　not　that　our　conclusion？

Yes；　he　replied。

And　philosophy　is　the　acquisition　of　knowledge？

Yes；　he　said。

And　what　knowledge　ought　we　to　acquire？　　May　we　not　answer　with　absolute　truthA　knowledge　which　will　do　us　good？

Certainly；　he　said。

And　should　we　be　any　the　better　if　we　went　about　having　a　knowledge　of　the　places　where　most　gold　was　hidden　in　the　earth？

Perhaps　we　should；　he　said。

But　have　we　not　already　proved；　I　said；　that　we　should　be　none　the　better　off；　even　if　without　trouble　and　digging　all　the　gold　which　there　is　in　the　earth　were　ours？　　And　if　we　knew　how　to　convert　stones　into　gold；　the　knowledge　would　be　of　no　value　to　us；　unless　we　also　knew　how　to　use　the　gold？　　Do　you　not　remember？　I　said。

I　quite　remember；　he　said。

Nor　would　any　other　knowledge；　whether　of　money…making；　or　of　medicine；　or　of　any　other　art　which　knows　only　how　to　make　a　thing；　and　not　to　use　it　when　made；　be　of　any　good　to　us。　　Am　I　not　right？

He　agreed。

And　if　there　were　a　knowledge　which　was　able　to　make　men　immortal；　without　giving　them　the　knowledge　of　the　way　to　use　the　immortality；　neither　would　there　be　any　use　in　that；　if　we　may　argue　from　the　analogy　of　the　previous　instances？

To　all　this　he　agreed。

Then；　my　dear　boy；　I　said；　the　knowledge　which　we　want　is　one　that　uses　as　well　as　makes？

True；　he　said。

And　our　desire　is　not　to　be　skilful　lyre…makers；　or　artists　of　that　sort　far　otherwise；　for　with　them　the　art　which　makes　is　one；　and　the　art　which　uses　is　another。　　Although　they　have　to　do　with　the　same；　they　are　divided：　　for　the　art　which　makes　and　the　art　which　plays　on　the　lyre　differ　widely　from　one　another。　　Am　I　not　right？

He　agreed。

And　clearly　we　do　not　want　the　art　of　the　flute…maker；　this　is　only　another　of　the　same　sort？

He　assented。

But　suppose；　I　said；　that　we　were　to　learn　the　art　of　making　speeches　would　that　be　the　art　which　would　make　us　happy？

I　should　say；　no；　rejoined　Cleinias。

And　why　should　you　say　so？　I　asked。

I　see；　he　replied；　that　there　are　some　composers　of　speeches　who　do　not　know　how　to　use　the　speeches　which　they　make；　just　as　the　makers　of　lyres　do　not　know　how　to　use　the　lyres；　and　also　some　who　are　of　themselves　unable　to　compose　speeches；　but　are　able　to　use　the　speeches　which　the　others　make　for　them；　and　this　proves　that　the　art　of　making　speeches　is　not　the　same　as　the　art　of　using　them。

Yes；　I　said；　and　I　take　your　words　to　be　a　sufficient　proof　that　the　art　of　making　speeches　is　not　one　which　will　make　a　man　happy。　　And　yet　I　did　think　that　the　art　which　we　have　so　long　been　seeking　might　be　discovered　in　that　direction；　for　the　composers　of　speeches；　whenever　I　meet　them；　always　appear　to　me　to　be　very　extraordinary　men；　Cleinias；　and　their　art　is　lofty　and　divine；　and　no　wonder。　　For　their　art　is　a　part　of　the　great　art　of　enchantment；　and　hardly；　if　at　all；　inferior　to　it：　　and　whereas　the　art　of　the　enchanter　is　a　mode　of　charming　snakes　and　spiders　and　scorpions；　and　other　monsters　and　pests；　this　art　of　their's　acts　upon　dicasts　and　ecclesiasts　and　bodies　of　men；　for　the　charming　and　pacifying　of　them。　　Do　you　agree　with　me？

Yes；　he　said；　I　think　that　you　are　quite　right。

Whither　then　shall　we　go；　I　said；　and　to　what　art　shall　we　have　recourse？

I　do　not　see　my　way；　he　said。

But　I　think　that　I　do；　I　replied。

And　what　is　your　notion？　asked　Cleinias。

I　think　that　the　art　of　the　general　is　above　all　others　the　one　of　which　the　possession　is　most　likely　to　make　a　man　happy。

I　do　not　think　so；　he　said。

Why　not？　I　said。

The　art　of　the　general　is　surely　an　art　of　hunting　mankind。

What　of　that？　I　said。

Why；　he　said；　no　art　of　hunting　extends　beyond　hunting　and　capturing；　and　when　the　prey　is　taken　the　huntsman　or　fisherman　cannot　use　it；　but　they　hand　it　over　to　the　cook；　and　the　geometricians　and　astronomers　and　calculators　（who　all　belong　to　the　hunting　class；　for　they　do　not　make　their　diagrams；　but　only　find　out　that　which　was　previously　contained　in　them）they；　I　say；　not　being　able　to　use　but　only　to　catch　their　prey；　hand　over　their　inventions　to　the　dialectician　to　be　applied　by　him；　if　they　have　any　sense　in　them。

Good；　I　said；　fairest　and　wisest　Cleinias。　　And　is　this　true？

Certainly；　he　said；　just　as　a　general　when　he　takes　a　city　or　a　camp　hands　over　his　new　acquisition　to　the　statesman；　for　he　does　not　know　how　to　use　them　himself；　or　as　the　quail…taker　transfers　the　quails　to　the　keeper　of　them。　　If　we　are　looking　for　the　art　which　is　to　make　us　blessed；　and　which　is　able　to　use　that　which　it　makes　or　takes；　the　art　of　the　general　is　not　the　one；　and　some　other　must　be　found。

CRITO：　　And　do　you　mean；　Socrates；　that　the　youngster　said　all　this？

SOCRATES：　　Are　you　incredulous；　Crito？

CRITO：　　Indeed；　I　am；　for　if　he　did　say　so；　then　in　my　opinion　he　needs　neither　Euthydemus　nor　any　one　else　to　be　his　instructor。

SOCRATES：　　Perhaps　I　may　have　forgotten；　and　Ctesippus　was　the　real　answerer。

CRITO：　　Ctesippus！　nonsense。

SOCRATES：　　All　I　know　is　that　I　heard　these　words；　and　that　they　were　not　spoken　either　by　Euthydemus　or　Dionysodorus。　　I　dare　say；　my　good　Crito；　that　they　may　have　been　spoken　by　some　superior　person：　　that　I　heard　them　I　am　certain。

CRITO：　　Yes；　indeed；　Socrates；　by　some　one　a　good　deal　superior；　as　I　should　be　disposed　to　think。　　But　did　you　carry　the　search　any　further；　and　did　you　find　the　art　which　you　were　seeking？

SOCRATES：　　Find！　my　dear　sir；　no　indeed。　　And　we　cut　a　poor　figure；　we　were　like　children　after　larks；　always　on　the　point　of　catching　the　art；　which　was　always　getting　away　from　us。　　But　why　should　I　repeat　the　whole　story？　　At　last　we　came　to　the　kingly　art；　and　enquired　whether　that　gave　and　caused　happiness；　and　then　we　got　into　a　labyrinth；　and　when　we　thought　we　were　at　the　end；　came　out　again　at　the　beginning；　having　still　to　seek　as　much　as　ever。

CRITO：　　How　did　that　happen；　Socrates？

SOCRATES：　　I　will　tell　you；　the　kingly　art　was　identified　by　us　with　the　political。

CRITO：　　Well；　and　what　came　of　that？

SOCRATES：　　To　this　royal　or　political　art　all　the　arts；　including　the　art　of　the　general；　seemed　to　render　up　the　supremacy；　that　being　the　only　one　which　knew　how　to　use　what　they　produce。　　Here　obviously　was　the　very　art　which　we　were　seekingthe　art　which　is　the　source　of　good　government；　and　which　may　be　described；　in　the　language　of　Aeschylus；　as　alone　sitting　at　the　helm　of　the　vessel　of　state；　piloting　and　governing　all　things；　and　utilizing　them。

CRITO：　　And　were　you　not　right；　Socrates？

SOCRATES：　　You　shall　judge；　Crito；　if　you　are　willing　to　hear　what　followed；　for　we　resumed　the　enquiry；　and　a　question　of　this　sort　was　asked：　　Does　the　kingly　art；　having　this　supreme　authority；　do　anything　for　us？　　To　be　sure；　was　the　answer。　　And　would　not　you；　Crito；　say　the　same？

CRITO：　　Yes；　I　should。

SOCRATES：　　And　what　would　you　say　that　the　kingly　art　does？　　If　medicine　were　supposed　to　have　supreme　authority　over　the　subordinate　arts；　and　I　were　to　ask　you　a　similar　question　about　that；　you　would　sayit　produces　health？

CRITO：　　I　should。

SOCRATES：　　And　what　of　your　own　art　of　husbandry；　supposing　that　to　have　supreme　authority　over　the　subject　artswhat　does　that　do？　　Does　it　not　supply　us　with　the　fruits　of　the　earth？

CRITO：　　Yes。

SOCRATES：　　And　what　does　the　kingly　art　do　when　invested　with　supreme　power？　　Perhaps　you　may　not　be　ready　with　an　answer？

CRITO：　　Indeed　I　am　not；　Socrates。

SOCRATES：　　No　more　were　we；　Crito。　　But　at　any　rate　you　know　that　if　this　is　the　art　which　we　were　seeking；　it　ought　to　be　useful。

CRITO：　　Certainly。

SOCRATES：　　And　surely　it　ought　to　do　us　some　good？

CRITO：　　Certainly；　Socrates。

SOCRATES：　　And　Cleinias　and　I　had　arrived　at　the　conclusion　that　knowledge　of　some　kind　is　the　only　good。

CRITO：　　Yes；　that　was　what　you　were　saying。

SOCRATES：　　All　the　other　results　of　politics；　and　they　are　many；　as　for　example；　wealth；　freedom；　tranquillity；　were　neither　good　nor　evil　in　themselves；　but　the　political　science　ought　to　make　us　wise；　and　impart　knowledge　to　us；　if　that　is　the　science　which　is　likely　to　do　us　good；　and　make　us　happy。

CRITO：　　Yes；　that　was　the　conclusion　at　which　you　had　arrived；　according　to　your　report　of　the　conversation。

SOCRATES：　　And　does　the　kingly　art　make　men　wise　and　good？

CRITO：　　Why　not；　Socrates？

SOCRATES：　　What；　all　men；　and　in　every　respect？　and　teach　them　all　the　arts；carpentering；　and　cobbling；　and　the　rest　of　them？

CRITO：　　I　think　not；　Socrates。

SOCRATES：　　But　then　what　is　this　knowledge；　and　what　are　we　to　do　with　it？　For　it　is　not　the　source　of　any　works　which　are　neither　good　nor　evil；　and　gives　no　knowledge；　but　the　knowledge　of　itself；　what　then　can　it　be；　and　what　are　we　to　do　with　it？　　Shall　we　say；　Crito；　that　it　is　the　knowledge　by　which　we　are　to　make　other　men　good？

CRITO：　　By　a