euthydemus-第8章

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hall　we　say；　Crito；　that　it　is　the　knowledge　by　which　we　are　to　make　other　men　good？

CRITO：　　By　all　means。

SOCRATES：　　And　in　what　will　they　be　good　and　useful？　　Shall　we　repeat　that　they　will　make　others　good；　and　that　these　others　will　make　others　again；　without　ever　determining　in　what　they　are　to　be　good；　for　we　have　put　aside　the　results　of　politics；　as　they　are　called。　　This　is　the　old；　old　song　over　again；　and　we　are　just　as　far　as　ever；　if　not　farther；　from　the　knowledge　of　the　art　or　science　of　happiness。

CRITO：　　Indeed；　Socrates；　you　do　appear　to　have　got　into　a　great　perplexity。

SOCRATES：　　Thereupon；　Crito；　seeing　that　I　was　on　the　point　of　shipwreck；　I　lifted　up　my　voice；　and　earnestly　entreated　and　called　upon　the　strangers　to　save　me　and　the　youth　from　the　whirlpool　of　the　argument；　they　were　our　Castor　and　Pollux；　I　said；　and　they　should　be　serious；　and　show　us　in　sober　earnest　what　that　knowledge　was　which　would　enable　us　to　pass　the　rest　of　our　lives　in　happiness。

CRITO：　　And　did　Euthydemus　show　you　this　knowledge？

SOCRATES：　　Yes；　indeed；　he　proceeded　in　a　lofty　strain　to　the　following　effect：　　Would　you　rather；　Socrates；　said　he；　that　I　should　show　you　this　knowledge　about　which　you　have　been　doubting；　or　shall　I　prove　that　you　already　have　it？

What；　I　said；　are　you　blessed　with　such　a　power　as　this？

Indeed　I　am。

Then　I　would　much　rather　that　you　should　prove　me　to　have　such　a　knowledge；　at　my　time　of　life　that　will　be　more　agreeable　than　having　to　learn。

Then　tell　me；　he　said；　do　you　know　anything？

Yes；　I　said；　I　know　many　things；　but　not　anything　of　much　importance。

That　will　do；　he　said：　　And　would　you　admit　that　anything　is　what　it　is；　and　at　the　same　time　is　not　what　it　is？

Certainly　not。

And　did　you　not　say　that　you　knew　something？

I　did。

If　you　know；　you　are　knowing。

Certainly；　of　the　knowledge　which　I　have。

That　makes　no　difference；and　must　you　not；　if　you　are　knowing；　know　all　things？

Certainly　not；　I　said；　for　there　are　many　other　things　which　I　do　not　know。

And　if　you　do　not　know；　you　are　not　knowing。

Yes；　friend；　of　that　which　I　do　not　know。

Still　you　are　not　knowing；　and　you　said　just　now　that　you　were　knowing；　and　therefore　you　are　and　are　not　at　the　same　time；　and　in　reference　to　the　same　things。

A　pretty　clatter；　as　men　say；　Euthydemus；　this　of　yours！　and　will　you　explain　how　I　possess　that　knowledge　for　which　we　were　seeking？　　Do　you　mean　to　say　that　the　same　thing　cannot　be　and　also　not　be；　and　therefore；　since　I　know　one　thing；　that　I　know　all；　for　I　cannot　be　knowing　and　not　knowing　at　the　same　time；　and　if　I　know　all　things；　then　I　must　have　the　knowledge　for　which　we　are　seekingMay　I　assume　this　to　be　your　ingenious　notion？

Out　of　your　own　mouth；　Socrates；　you　are　convicted；　he　said。

Well；　but；　Euthydemus；　I　said；　has　that　never　happened　to　you？　for　if　I　am　only　in　the　same　case　with　you　and　our　beloved　Dionysodorus；　I　cannot　complain。　　Tell　me；　then；　you　two；　do　you　not　know　some　things；　and　not　know　others？

Certainly　not；　Socrates；　said　Dionysodorus。

What　do　you　mean；　I　said；　do　you　know　nothing？

Nay；　he　replied；　we　do　know　something。

Then；　I　said；　you　know　all　things；　if　you　know　anything？

Yes；　all　things；　he　said；　and　that　is　as　true　of　you　as　of　us。

O；　indeed；　I　said；　what　a　wonderful　thing；　and　what　a　great　blessing！　　And　do　all　other　men　know　all　things　or　nothing？

Certainly；　he　replied；　they　cannot　know　some　things；　and　not　know　others；　and　be　at　the　same　time　knowing　and　not　knowing。

Then　what　is　the　inference？　　I　said。

They　all　know　all　things；　he　replied；　if　they　know　one　thing。

O　heavens；　Dionysodorus；　I　said；　I　see　now　that　you　are　in　earnest；　hardly　have　I　got　you　to　that　point。　　And　do　you　really　and　truly　know　all　things；　including　carpentering　and　leather…cutting？

Certainly；　he　said。

And　do　you　know　stitching？

Yes；　by　the　gods；　we　do；　and　cobbling；　too。

And　do　you　know　things　such　as　the　numbers　of　the　stars　and　of　the　sand？

Certainly；　did　you　think　we　should　say　No　to　that？

By　Zeus；　said　Ctesippus；　interrupting；　I　only　wish　that　you　would　give　me　some　proof　which　would　enable　me　to　know　whether　you　speak　truly。

What　proof　shall　I　give　you？　he　said。

Will　you　tell　me　how　many　teeth　Euthydemus　has？　and　Euthydemus　shall　tell　how　many　teeth　you　have。

Will　you　not　take　our　word　that　we　know　all　things？

Certainly　not；　said　Ctesippus：　　you　must　further　tell　us　this　one　thing；　and　then　we　shall　know　that　you　are　speak　the　truth；　if　you　tell　us　the　number；　and　we　count　them；　and　you　are　found　to　be　right；　we　will　believe　the　rest。　　They　fancied　that　Ctesippus　was　making　game　of　them；　and　they　refused；　and　they　would　only　say　in　answer　to　each　of　his　questions；　that　they　knew　all　things。　　For　at　last　Ctesippus　began　to　throw　off　all　restraint；　no　question　in　fact　was　too　bad　for　him；　he　would　ask　them　if　they　knew　the　foulest　things；　and　they；　like　wild　boars；　came　rushing　on　his　blows；　and　fearlessly　replied　that　they　did。　　At　last；　Crito；　I　too　was　carried　away　by　my　incredulity；　and　asked　Euthydemus　whether　Dionysodorus　could　dance。

Certainly；　he　replied。

And　can　he　vault　among　swords；　and　turn　upon　a　wheel；　at　his　age？　has　he　got　to　such　a　height　of　skill　as　that？

He　can　do　anything；　he　said。

And　did　you　always　know　this？

Always；　he　said。

When　you　were　children；　and　at　your　birth？

They　both　said　that　they　did。

This　we　could　not　believe。　　And　Euthydemus　said：　　You　are　incredulous；　Socrates。

Yes；　I　said；　and　I　might　well　be　incredulous；　if　I　did　not　know　you　to　be　wise　men。

But　if　you　will　answer；　he　said；　I　will　make　you　confess　to　similar　marvels。

Well；　I　said；　there　is　nothing　that　I　should　like　better　than　to　be　self…　convicted　of　this；　for　if　I　am　really　a　wise　man；　which　I　never　knew　before；　and　you　will　prove　to　me　that　I　know　and　have　always　known　all　things；　nothing　in　life　would　be　a　greater　gain　to　me。

Answer　then；　he　said。

Ask；　I　said；　and　I　will　answer。

Do　you　know　something；　Socrates；　or　nothing？

Something；　I　said。

And　do　you　know　with　what　you　know；　or　with　something　else？

With　what　I　know；　and　I　suppose　that　you　mean　with　my　soul？

Are　you　not　ashamed；　Socrates；　of　asking　a　question　when　you　are　asked　one？

Well；　I　said；　but　then　what　am　I　to　do？　for　I　will　do　whatever　you　bid；　when　I　do　not　know　what　you　are　asking；　you　tell　me　to　answer　nevertheless；　and　not　to　ask　again。

Why；　you　surely　have　some　notion　of　my　meaning；　he　said。

Yes；　I　replied。

Well；　then；　answer　according　to　your　notion　of　my　meaning。

Yes；　I　said；　but　if　the　question　which　you　ask　in　one　sense　is　understood　and　answered　by　me　in　another；　will　that　please　youif　I　answer　what　is　not　to　the　point？

That　will　please　me　very　well；　but　will　not　please　you　equally　well；　as　I　imagine。

I　certainly　will　not　answer　unless　I　understand　you；　I　said。

You　will　not　answer；　he　said；　according　to　your　view　of　the　meaning；　because　you　will　be　prating；　and　are　an　ancient。

Now　I　saw　that　he　was　getting　angry　with　me　for　drawing　distinctions；　when　he　wanted　to　catch　me　in　his　springes　of　words。　　And　I　remembered　that　Connus　was　always　angry　with　me　when　I　opposed　him；　and　then　he　neglected　me；　because　he　thought　that　I　was　stupid；　and　as　I　was　intending　to　go　to　Euthydemus　as　a　pupil；　I　reflected　that　I　had　better　let　him　have　his　way；　as　he　might　think　me　a　blockhead；　and　refuse　to　take　me。　　So　I　said：　　You　are　a　far　better　dialectician　than　myself；　Euthydemus；　for　I　have　never　made　a　profession　of　the　art；　and　therefore　do　as　you　say；　ask　your　questions　once　more；　and　I　will　answer。

Answer　then；　he　said；　again；　whether　you　know　what　you　know　with　something；　or　with　nothing。

Yes；　I　said；　I　know　with　my　soul。

The　man　will　answer　more　than　the　question；　for　I　did　not　ask　you；　he　said；　with　what　you　know；　but　whether　you　know　with　something。

Again　I　replied；　Through　ignorance　I　have　answered　too　much；　but　I　hope　that　you　will　forgive　me。　　And　now　I　will　answer　simply　that　I　always　know　what　I　know　with　something。

And　is　that　something；　he　rejoined；　always　the　same；　or　sometimes　one　thing；　and　sometimes　another　thing？

Always；　I　replied；　when　I　know；　I　know　with　this。

Will　you　not　cease　adding　to　your　answers？

My　fear　is　that　this　word　'always'　may　get　us　into　trouble。

You；　perhaps；　but　certainly　not　us。　　And　now　answer：　　Do　you　always　know　with　this？

Always；　since　I　am　required　to　withdraw　the　words　'when　I　know。'

You　always　know　with　this；　or；　always　knowing；　do　you　know　some　things　with　this；　and　some　things　with　something　else；　or　do　you　know　all　things　with　this？

All　that　I　know；　I　replied；　I　know　with　this。

There　again；　Socrates；　he　said；　the　addition　is　superfluous。

Well；　then；　I　said；　I　will　take　away　the　words　'that　I　know。'

Nay；　take　nothing　away；　I　desire　no　favours　of　you；　but　let　me　ask：　　Would　you　be　able　to　know　all　things；　if　you　did　not　know　all　things？

Quite　impossible。

And　now；　he　said；　you　may　add　on　whatever　you　like；　for　you　confess　that　you　know　all　things。

I　suppose　that　is　true；　I　said；　if　my　qualification　implied　in　the　words　'that　I　know'　is　not　allowed　to　stand；　and　so　I　do　know　all　things。

And　have　you　not　admitted　that　you　always　know　all　things　with　that　which　you　know；　whether　you　make　the　addition　of　'when　you　know　them'　or　not？　for　you　have　acknowledged　that　you　have　always　and　at　once　known　all　things；　that　is　to　say；　when　you　were　a　child；　and　at　your　birth；　and　when　you　were　growing　up；　and　before　you　were　born；　and　before　the　heaven　and　earth　existed；　you　knew　all　things；　if　you　always　know　them；　and　I　swear　that　you　shall　always　continue　to　know　all　things；　if　I　am　of　the　mind　to　make　you。

But　I　hope　that　you　will　be　of　that　mind；　reverend　Euthydemus；　I　said；　if　you　are　really　speaking　the　truth；　and　yet　I　a　little　doubt　your　power　to　make　good　your　words　unless　you　have　the　help　of　your　brother　Dionysodorus；　then　you　may　do　it。　　Tell　me　now；　both　of　you；　for　although　in　the　main　I　cannot　doubt　that　I　really　do　know　all　things；　when　I　am　told　so　by　men　of　your　prodigious　wisdomhow　can　I　say　that　I　know　such　things；　Euthydemus；　as　that　the　good　are　unjust；　come；　do　I　know　that　or　not？

Certainly；　you　know　that。

What　do　I　know？

That　the　good　are　not　unjust。

Quite　true；　I　said；　and　that　I　have　always　known；　but　the　question　is；　where　did　I　learn　that　the　good　are　unjust？

Nowhere；　said　Dionysodorus。

Then；　I　said；　I　do　not　know　this。

You　are　ruining　the　argument；　said　Euthydemus　to　Dionysodorus；　he　will　be　proved　not　to　know；　and　then　after　all　he　will　be　knowing　and　not　knowing　at　the　same　time。

Dionysodorus　blushed。

I　turned　to　the　other；　and　said；　What　do　you　think；　Euthydemus？　　Does　not　your　omniscient　brother　appear　to　you　to　have　made　a　mistake？

What；　replied　Dionysodorus　in　a　moment；　am　I　the　brother　of　Euthydemus？

Thereupon　I　said；　Please　not　to　interrupt；　my　good　friend；　or　prevent　Euthydemus　from　proving　to　me　that　I　know　the　good　to　be　unjust；　such　a　lesson　you　might　at　least　allow　me　to　learn。

You　are　running　away；　Socrates；　said　Dionysodorus；　and　refusing　to　answer。

No　wonder；　I　said；　for