euthydemus-第9章

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You　are　running　away；　Socrates；　said　Dionysodorus；　and　refusing　to　answer。

No　wonder；　I　said；　for　I　am　not　a　match　for　one　of　you；　and　a　fortiori　I　must　run　away　from　two。　　I　am　no　Heracles；　and　even　Heracles　could　not　fight　against　the　Hydra；　who　was　a　she…Sophist；　and　had　the　wit　to　shoot　up　many　new　heads　when　one　of　them　was　cut　off；　especially　when　he　saw　a　second　monster　of　a　sea…crab；　who　was　also　a　Sophist；　and　appeared　to　have　newly　arrived　from　a　sea…voyage；　bearing　down　upon　him　from　the　left；　opening　his　mouth　and　biting。　　When　the　monster　was　growing　troublesome　he　called　Iolaus；　his　nephew；　to　his　help；　who　ably　succoured　him；　but　if　my　Iolaus；　who　is　my　brother　Patrocles　（the　statuary）；　were　to　come；　he　would　only　make　a　bad　business　worse。

And　now　that　you　have　delivered　yourself　of　this　strain；　said　Dionysodorus；　will　you　inform　me　whether　Iolaus　was　the　nephew　of　Heracles　any　more　than　he　is　yours？

I　suppose　that　I　had　best　answer　you；　Dionysodorus；　I　said；　for　you　will　insist　on　askingthat　I　pretty　well　knowout　of　envy；　in　order　to　prevent　me　from　learning　the　wisdom　of　Euthydemus。

Then　answer　me；　he　said。

Well　then；　I　said；　I　can　only　reply　that　Iolaus　was　not　my　nephew　at　all；　but　the　nephew　of　Heracles；　and　his　father　was　not　my　brother　Patrocles；　but　Iphicles；　who　has　a　name　rather　like　his；　and　was　the　brother　of　Heracles。

And　is　Patrocles；　he　said；　your　brother？

Yes；　I　said；　he　is　my　half…brother；　the　son　of　my　mother；　but　not　of　my　father。

Then　he　is　and　is　not　your　brother。

Not　by　the　same　father；　my　good　man；　I　said；　for　Chaeredemus　was　his　father；　and　mine　was　Sophroniscus。

And　was　Sophroniscus　a　father；　and　Chaeredemus　also？

Yes；　I　said；　the　former　was　my　father；　and　the　latter　his。

Then；　he　said；　Chaeredemus　is　not　a　father。

He　is　not　my　father；　I　said。

But　can　a　father　be　other　than　a　father？　or　are　you　the　same　as　a　stone？

I　certainly　do　not　think　that　I　am　a　stone；　I　said；　though　I　am　afraid　that　you　may　prove　me　to　be　one。

Are　you　not　other　than　a　stone？

I　am。

And　being　other　than　a　stone；　you　are　not　a　stone；　and　being　other　than　gold；　you　are　not　gold？

Very　true。

And　so　Chaeredemus；　he　said；　being　other　than　a　father；　is　not　a　father？

I　suppose　that　he　is　not　a　father；　I　replied。

For　if；　said　Euthydemus；　taking　up　the　argument；　Chaeredemus　is　a　father；　then　Sophroniscus；　being　other　than　a　father；　is　not　a　father；　and　you；　Socrates；　are　without　a　father。

Ctesippus；　here　taking　up　the　argument；　said：　　And　is　not　your　father　in　the　same　case；　for　he　is　other　than　my　father？

Assuredly　not；　said　Euthydemus。

Then　he　is　the　same？

He　is　the　same。

I　cannot　say　that　I　like　the　connection；　but　is　he　only　my　father；　Euthydemus；　or　is　he　the　father　of　all　other　men？

Of　all　other　men；　he　replied。　　Do　you　suppose　the　same　person　to　be　a　father　and　not　a　father？

Certainly；　I　did　so　imagine；　said　Ctesippus。

And　do　you　suppose　that　gold　is　not　gold；　or　that　a　man　is　not　a　man？

They　are　not　'in　pari　materia；'　Euthydemus；　said　Ctesippus；　and　you　had　better　take　care；　for　it　is　monstrous　to　suppose　that　your　father　is　the　father　of　all。

But　he　is；　he　replied。

What；　of　men　only；　said　Ctesippus；　or　of　horses　and　of　all　other　animals？

Of　all；　he　said。

And　your　mother；　too；　is　the　mother　of　all？

Yes；　our　mother　too。

Yes；　and　your　mother　has　a　progeny　of　sea…urchins　then？

Yes；　and　yours；　he　said。

And　gudgeons　and　puppies　and　pigs　are　your　brothers？

And　yours　too。

And　your　papa　is　a　dog？

And　so　is　yours；　he　said。

If　you　will　answer　my　questions；　said　Dionysodorus；　I　will　soon　extract　the　same　admissions　from　you；　Ctesippus。　　You　say　that　you　have　a　dog。

Yes；　a　villain　of　a　one；　said　Ctesippus。

And　he　has　puppies？

Yes；　and　they　are　very　like　himself。

And　the　dog　is　the　father　of　them？

Yes；　he　said；　I　certainly　saw　him　and　the　mother　of　the　puppies　come　together。

And　is　he　not　yours？

To　be　sure　he　is。

Then　he　is　a　father；　and　he　is　yours；　ergo；　he　is　your　father；　and　the　puppies　are　your　brothers。

Let　me　ask　you　one　little　question　more；　said　Dionysodorus；　quickly　interposing；　in　order　that　Ctesippus　might　not　get　in　his　word：　　You　beat　this　dog？

Ctesippus　said；　laughing；　Indeed　I　do；　and　I　only　wish　that　I　could　beat　you　instead　of　him。

Then　you　beat　your　father；　he　said。

I　should　have　far　more　reason　to　beat　yours；　said　Ctesippus；　what　could　he　have　been　thinking　of　when　he　begat　such　wise　sons？　much　good　has　this　father　of　you　and　your　brethren　the　puppies　got　out　of　this　wisdom　of　yours。

But　neither　he　nor　you；　Ctesippus；　have　any　need　of　much　good。

And　have　you　no　need；　Euthydemus？　he　said。

Neither　I　nor　any　other　man；　for　tell　me　now；　Ctesippus；　if　you　think　it　good　or　evil　for　a　man　who　is　sick　to　drink　medicine　when　he　wants　it；　or　to　go　to　war　armed　rather　than　unarmed。

Good；　I　say。　　And　yet　I　know　that　I　am　going　to　be　caught　in　one　of　your　charming　puzzles。

That；　he　replied；　you　will　discover；　if　you　answer；　since　you　admit　medicine　to　be　good　for　a　man　to　drink；　when　wanted；　must　it　not　be　good　for　him　to　drink　as　much　as　possible；　when　he　takes　his　medicine；　a　cartload　of　hellebore　will　not　be　too　much　for　him？

Ctesippus　said：　　Quite　so；　Euthydemus；　that　is　to　say；　if　he　who　drinks　is　as　big　as　the　statue　of　Delphi。

And　seeing　that　in　war　to　have　arms　is　a　good　thing；　he　ought　to　have　as　many　spears　and　shields　as　possible？

Very　true；　said　Ctesippus；　and　do　you　think；　Euthydemus；　that　he　ought　to　have　one　shield　only；　and　one　spear？

I　do。

And　would　you　arm　Geryon　and　Briareus　in　that　way？　　Considering　that　you　and　your　companion　fight　in　armour；　I　thought　that　you　would　have　known　better。。。Here　Euthydemus　held　his　peace；　but　Dionysodorus　returned　to　the　previous　answer　of　Ctesippus　and　said：

Do　you　not　think　that　the　possession　of　gold　is　a　good　thing？

Yes；　said　Ctesippus；　and　the　more　the　better。

And　to　have　money　everywhere　and　always　is　a　good？

Certainly；　a　great　good；　he　said。

And　you　admit　gold　to　be　a　good？

Certainly；　he　replied。

And　ought　not　a　man　then　to　have　gold　everywhere　and　always；　and　as　much　as　possible　in　himself；　and　may　he　not　be　deemed　the　happiest　of　men　who　has　three　talents　of　gold　in　his　belly；　and　a　talent　in　his　pate；　and　a　stater　of　gold　in　either　eye？

Yes；　Euthydemus；　said　Ctesippus；　and　the　Scythians　reckon　those　who　have　gold　in　their　own　skulls　to　be　the　happiest　and　bravest　of　men　（that　is　only　another　instance　of　your　manner　of　speaking　about　the　dog　and　father）；　and　what　is　still　more　extraordinary；　they　drink　out　of　their　own　skulls　gilt；　and　see　the　inside　of　them；　and　hold　their　own　head　in　their　hands。

And　do　the　Scythians　and　others　see　that　which　has　the　quality　of　vision；　or　that　which　has　not？　said　Euthydemus。

That　which　has　the　quality　of　vision　clearly。

And　you　also　see　that　which　has　the　quality　of　vision？　he　said。　　（Note：　　the　ambiguity　of　（Greek）；　'things　visible　and　able　to　see；'　（Greek）；　'the　speaking　of　the　silent；'　the　silent　denoting　either　the　speaker　or　the　subject　of　the　speech；　cannot　be　perfectly　rendered　in　English。　　Compare　Aristot。　Soph。　Elenchi　（Poste's　translation）：

'Of　ambiguous　propositions　the　following　are　instances：

'I　hope　that　you　the　enemy　may　slay。

'Whom　one　knows；　he　knows。　　Either　the　person　knowing　or　the　person　known　is　here　affirmed　to　know。

'What　one　sees；　that　one　sees：　　one　sees　a　pillar：　　ergo；　that　one　pillar　sees。

'What　you　ARE　holding；　that　you　are：　　you　are　holding　a　stone：　　ergo；　a　stone　you　are。

'Is　a　speaking　of　the　silent　possible？　　〃The　silent〃　denotes　either　the　speaker　are　the　subject　of　speech。

'There　are　three　kinds　of　ambiguity　of　term　or　proposition。　　The　first　is　when　there　is　an　equal　linguistic　propriety　in　several　interpretations；　the　second　when　one　is　improper　but　customary；　the　third　when　the　ambiguity　arises　in　the　combination　of　elements　that　are　in　themselves　unambiguous；　as　in　〃knowing　letters。〃　　〃Knowing〃　and　〃letters〃　are　perhaps　separately　unambiguous；　but　in　combination　may　imply　either　that　the　letters　are　known；　or　that　they　themselves　have　knowledge。　　Such　are　the　modes　in　which　propositions　and　terms　may　be　ambiguous。'

Yes；　I　do。

Then　do　you　see　our　garments？

Yes。

Then　our　garments　have　the　quality　of　vision。

They　can　see　to　any　extent；　said　Ctesippus。

What　can　they　see？

Nothing；　but　you；　my　sweet　man；　may　perhaps　imagine　that　they　do　not　see；　and　certainly；　Euthydemus；　you　do　seem　to　me　to　have　been　caught　napping　when　you　were　not　asleep；　and　that　if　it　be　possible　to　speak　and　say　nothingyou　are　doing　so。

And　may　there　not　be　a　silence　of　the　speaker？　said　Dionysodorus。

Impossible；　said　Ctesippus。

Or　a　speaking　of　the　silent？

That　is　still　more　impossible；　he　said。

But　when　you　speak　of　stones；　wood；　iron　bars；　do　you　not　speak　of　the　silent？

Not　when　I　pass　a　smithy；　for　then　the　iron　bars　make　a　tremendous　noise　and　outcry　if　they　are　touched：　　so　that　here　your　wisdom　is　strangely　mistaken；　please；　however；　to　tell　me　how　you　can　be　silent　when　speaking　（I　thought　that　Ctesippus　was　put　upon　his　mettle　because　Cleinias　was　present）。

When　you　are　silent；　said　Euthydemus；　is　there　not　a　silence　of　all　things？

Yes；　he　said。

But　if　speaking　things　are　included　in　all　things；　then　the　speaking　are　silent。

What；　said　Ctesippus；　then　all　things　are　not　silent？

Certainly　not；　said　Euthydemus。

Then；　my　good　friend；　do　they　all　speak？

Yes；　those　which　speak。

Nay；　said　Ctesippus；　but　the　question　which　I　ask　is　whether　all　things　are　silent　or　speak？

Neither　and　both；　said　Dionysodorus；　quickly　interposing；　I　am　sure　that　you　will　be　'non…plussed'　at　that　answer。

Here　Ctesippus；　as　his　manner　was；　burst　into　a　roar　of　laughter；　he　said；　That　brother　of　yours；　Euthydemus；　has　got　into　a　dilemma；　all　is　over　with　him。　　This　delighted　Cleinias；　whose　laughter　made　Ctesippus　ten　times　as　uproarious；　but　I　cannot　help　thinking　that　the　rogue　must　have　picked　up　this　answer　from　them；　for　there　has　been　no　wisdom　like　theirs　in　our　time。　　Why　do　you　laugh；　Cleinias；　I　said；　at　such　solemn　and　beautiful　things？

Why；　Socrates；　said　Dionysodorus；　did　you　ever　see　a　beautiful　thing？

Yes；　Dionysodorus；　I　replied；　I　have　seen　many。

Were　they　other　than　the　beautiful；　or　the　same　as　the　beautiful？

Now　I　was　in　a　great　quandary　at　having　to　answer　this　question；　and　I　thought　that　I　was　rightly　served　for　having　opened　my　mouth　at　all：　　I　said　however；　They　are　not　the　same　as　absolute　beauty；　but　they　have　beauty　present　with　each　of　them。

And　are　you　an　ox　because　an　ox　is　present　with　you；　or　are　you　Dionysodorus；　because　Dionysodorus　is　present　with　you？

God　forbid；　I　replied。

But　how；　he　said；　by　reason　of　one　thing　being　present　with　another；　will　one　thing　be　another？

Is　that　your　difficulty？　I　said。　　For　I　was　beginning　to　imitate　their　skill；　on　which　my　heart　was　set。

Of　course；　he　replied；　I　and　all　the　world　are　in　a　difficulty　about　the　non…existent。

What　do　you　mean；　Dionysodorus？　I　said。　　Is　not　the　honourable　honourable　and　the　base　base？

That；　he　said；　is　as　I　please。